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Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:39 pm
by Boydie
Cao Chao wrote:
Boydie wrote:Good mention of Edward Pellew.

Sir Francis Drake was a great ship commander, the raid of Cádiz being probably being his most successful campaign, his tiny fleet destroyed, captured or sunk over 100 ships over a 3 month period and delayed the Spanish plans to invade England by more than a year, giving Queen Elizabeth I precious time to prepare, personally I think if Drake's campaign wasn't successful, I think it would be safe to assume we would be speaking Spanish today. :wink:

Sure Nelson wasn't not known as a ship commander, but he does have a lot of experience of being a ship commander, plus if you add his "inspirational leadership and superb grasp of strategy and unconventional tactics", he'd make a fearsome foe.

You do realize that Drake's Cadiz raid faced little to no resistance and that most of the 100 ships lost were merchant and fishing vessels, right?

I'm not disparaging Nelson, but merely remarking that he never fought in an one-on-one engagement with any force of equal standing while a frigate or ship of the line captain aside from the Action of 19 December 1796 and the suicidal craziness that brought about the victory at the Battle of Cape St. Vincent (though the Spaniards were incompetent and ill prepared for fleet action).


To be fair, the reason why Drake faced little resistance is because he caught the Spanish by surprise. The Spanish were too slow to repel the English and by the time the Spanish fleet set sail,they were quickly forced to retire back to Cádiz due to the superiority of the English. By the time the the raid was over; the first day 37 Spanish vessels were destroyed, many of them apart of the Spanish fleet, although it is believed that Drake may have taken some ships with him too. Over the 3 month period, I remember watching a documentary stating that Drake had destroyed around 50 Armada Española vessels .* Also as you said; the rest would of been fishing/merchant ships. But still, it's still an impressive feat.

Your second point, point taken.

*If you like, I could try and find that documentary. It's very interesting, I'm sure it's kicking about YouTube somewhere.

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:36 pm
by Cao Chao
A fairer fleet action fight would probably be between de Ruyter and Nelson.

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:26 am
by ROTKobsessed
Boydie wrote:
Cao Chao wrote:
Boydie wrote:Good mention of Edward Pellew.

Sir Francis Drake was a great ship commander, the raid of Cádiz being probably being his most successful campaign, his tiny fleet destroyed, captured or sunk over 100 ships over a 3 month period and delayed the Spanish plans to invade England by more than a year, giving Queen Elizabeth I precious time to prepare, personally I think if Drake's campaign wasn't successful, I think it would be safe to assume we would be speaking Spanish today. :wink:

Sure Nelson wasn't not known as a ship commander, but he does have a lot of experience of being a ship commander, plus if you add his "inspirational leadership and superb grasp of strategy and unconventional tactics", he'd make a fearsome foe.

You do realize that Drake's Cadiz raid faced little to no resistance and that most of the 100 ships lost were merchant and fishing vessels, right?

I'm not disparaging Nelson, but merely remarking that he never fought in an one-on-one engagement with any force of equal standing while a frigate or ship of the line captain aside from the Action of 19 December 1796 and the suicidal craziness that brought about the victory at the Battle of Cape St. Vincent (though the Spaniards were incompetent and ill prepared for fleet action).


To be fair, the reason why Drake faced little resistance is because he caught the Spanish by surprise. The Spanish were too slow to repel the English and by the time the Spanish fleet set sail,they were quickly forced to retire back to Cádiz due to the superiority of the English. By the time the the raid was over; the first day 37 Spanish vessels were destroyed, many of them apart of the Spanish fleet, although it is believed that Drake may have taken some ships with him too. Over the 3 month period, I remember watching a documentary stating that Drake had destroyed around 50 Armada Española vessels .* Also as you said; the rest would of been fishing/merchant ships. But still, it's still an impressive feat.

Your second point, point taken.

*If you like, I could try and find that documentary. It's very interesting, I'm sure it's kicking about YouTube somewhere.


I think the documentary you're thinking of is The British
however, while he didn't destroy too many ships, the fact that England won is significantly important. Most textbooks on this subject (I've studied it before) say that by defeating the Spanish it basically allowed England to go and colonise America, as the Spanish couldn't control the channel

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:07 pm
by Boydie
Cao Chao wrote:A fairer fleet action fight would probably be between de Ruyter and Nelson.


Hmm, I don't know enough about de Ruyter to make a fair comment to be honest. I'll have a wee read about him. What do you think?

ROTKobsessed wrote:I think the documentary you're thinking of is The British
however, while he didn't destroy too many ships, the fact that England won is significantly important. Most textbooks on this subject (I've studied it before) say that by defeating the Spanish it basically allowed England to go and colonise America, as the Spanish couldn't control the channel


It could be that documentary! I'd need to check! But I totally agree with you! If it was not for Drake I believe the world would look a very very different place today.

Also it was Trafalgar Day two days ago, marked the 208 years since that famous battle. Didn't see any TV coverage about it which is a shame. Lest we forget.

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:47 pm
by ROTKobsessed
Boydie wrote:
ROTKobsessed wrote:I think the documentary you're thinking of is The British
however, while he didn't destroy too many ships, the fact that England won is significantly important. Most textbooks on this subject (I've studied it before) say that by defeating the Spanish it basically allowed England to go and colonise America, as the Spanish couldn't control the channel


It could be that documentary! I'd need to check! But I totally agree with you! If it was not for Drake I believe the world would look a very very different place today.


what I really loved about Navy victory under him was two fold:

1- the fact that England's navy was partly funded by Silver which Drake stole from Spain is pretty badass
2- wind helping Drake's plan; Elizabeth really ripped the s*** out of that idea, it was used as religious propaganda for the rest of her reign; 'god's on our side' etc etc

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:43 am
by Xia Kyoto
pacquiao vs mayweather

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:38 am
by addseo1115
Glad to see your nice discussion here.
Hope to be enjoyed with this forum much. :D

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:10 pm
by greencactaur
What about Cao Cao VS Han Xin? I love Cao Cao, and I think Han Xin was one of the greatest minds during the forming of the Han.

Re: The "VS" Thread

Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:18 pm
by adamoantos
I would like to know that myself