Historical Warfare

Discuss historical events and information concerning any culture, time, or location in our world (or even the frontier beyond).

Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:26 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:One thing to remeber is that Three Kingdoms' armies, despite having such high numbers, were not very battle effective. Being that many, if not the majority of the troops did very little fighting. The elite line breaker units (and this is what made officers of Three Kingdoms so famous, because they lead these units) carry out the bulk of the fighting, whilst the masses of infantry would act in support and pour through whatever hole they make.


So funnily enough, Dynasty Warriors isn't that far from the truth. (well okay, yes it is. But imagine if you controlled a whole unit instead of one person)

Even MengDe's army? I mean in later years, yeah but at GuanDu? Yuan Shu? Lu Bu? Apparently he had an army of 100 000 at that time, well with the Yellow Scarves in Qing..But were they trained? :oops:
Yeah.. DW is quite realistic :wink:
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:09 pm

Basically you need to look at the wording as well as read between the lines. So Cao Cao probably had a decent army. In fact Rafe (or was it somebody else?) said Cao Cao's chief achievement was that he kept his army standing together. That's really the closest you get to a professional army then.

Liu Bei and Sun Quan also had what were likely decent armies at Red Cliffs. Because Sun Quan talked about handpicking 30,000 troops for Zhou Yu. Liu Bei meanwhile had 10,000 from Liu Qi which were meant to be cream of the crop.
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:29 am

The old thread necromancer's at it again!

Was reading up on the Battle of Fei River, where Jin managed to almost annihilate a much larger Former Qin invasion force (outnumbered by about 4 to 1) because of its knowledge of the terrain, the high morale of its soldiers, the better commander, the desire to defend home, etc. It got me to thinking...what was the most outnumbered force to ever turn it around and pull out a victory?

The largest example I can think of is the Siege of Eger, where 2100 Hungarians beat back 150,000 Ottoman troops (outnumbered about 71:1), but I'm really more interested in pitched battles.

I really can't find this information anywhere, so 100 internets to anyone who holds this bit of trivia. Remember, the outnumbered side has to actually win, so Thermopylae or Mogadishu doesn't count.
I don't write fanfic, but if I did it would involve Zhou Yu and Zheng He fighting to win the heart of Lai Choi San. Then I'd make them join forces to fight Ming the Merciless, who secretly works for Master Li. I'd squeeze Lu Bu in there somehow.
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:42 pm

First one that comes to mind for me is the battle of Agincourt but I don't know the actual numbers. Wikipedia suggests that the English had 8,500 (approx) against 50,000 French. If this is realistic thats over 5-1 odds. Fairly impressive. :P
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby Zhai Rong » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:27 pm

I'd say the most likely scenario is a small professional army defeating a large, disorganised rabble. The one that comes to mind is Battle of Watling Street, which according to the various sources cited on Wikipedia saw the Romans win while outnumbered by anything from 5-1 to 23-1.
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:53 pm

I'm sure it is. I suppose what I'm looking for is the most triumphant example of quality (and technology) vs. quantity. Agincourt and Watling Street are great examples of this. Another one that comes to mind would be Rorke's Drift, where about 150 British fought off three to four thousand Zulus (at least 20 to 1). While the British were in a defensive position, I wouldn't strictly consider it a siege.

Any other examples? I'm sure that the Chinese or Indians would've had to have been on the giving/receiving end of one of these kinds of battles.
I don't write fanfic, but if I did it would involve Zhou Yu and Zheng He fighting to win the heart of Lai Choi San. Then I'd make them join forces to fight Ming the Merciless, who secretly works for Master Li. I'd squeeze Lu Bu in there somehow.
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:31 pm

TooMuchBaijiu wrote:one that comes to mind would be Rorke's Drift, where about 150 British fought off three to four thousand Zulus (at least 20 to 1).

"We have the Maxim gun, and they have not"!

First thought is of Cunaxa but d'oh...that was another defeat! :S Also Alexander's battles, e.g. in India. Cortez vs. the Aztecs is another obvious one.
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 am

...not exactly. Cortez got his ass kicked out of Tenochtitlan in La Noche Triste, and when he came back, he came back with over a hundred thousand Tlaxcallans, who were a little upset at the Aztecs' penchant for ripping their hearts out to offer to the Rain God. The Spanish were outnumbered by about two to one, but with their guns and armor and "deer", they made up for it. Again, I'm not really factoring in technology, but I wouldn't consider the battle a huge upset.
I don't write fanfic, but if I did it would involve Zhou Yu and Zheng He fighting to win the heart of Lai Choi San. Then I'd make them join forces to fight Ming the Merciless, who secretly works for Master Li. I'd squeeze Lu Bu in there somehow.
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby swift as the wind » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:33 am

are u familiar with asian books of military doctrines and tactics.....i have studied and continue to study SUN TZU"art of war"for over 18 yrs....there is a relative of the sun the master who wrote "art of war 2"...the book of five rings and the german VON CLAUSEWITZ....all are excellicent books that must be apart of your library....
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Re: Historical Warfare

Unread postby swift as the wind » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:43 am

superior man power in of itself does not assure one with victory........."if a tiger guards a ford in the forest...1000 deer cannot pass"...but as a practical matter it goes along way to help one gain victory.....this cannot be denied....
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