ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-106)

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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:45 pm

Lady Wu wrote:
景帝陵曰峻平,文帝陵曰崇陽,武帝陵曰峻陽,惠帝陵曰太陽: I wonder if the “names” were the names of the mountains they were buried on. Seems weird for the tombs to have names.


It was standard practice for imperial tombs to have names, dating back to at least Western Han. For example Gaozu of Han's tomb was called Changling, Wu of Han's was Maoling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoling), Wen of Wei was Shouyangling, and so on. For the Western Han, calling the tomb for 陵 "Hill" was sort of justified, the Jin tombs were much more modest.

https://books.google.no/books?id=0zp6iM ... bs&f=false
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:29 am

Fornadan wrote:It was standard practice for imperial tombs to have names, dating back to at least Western Han. For example Gaozu of Han's tomb was called Changling, Wu of Han's was Maoling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoling), Wen of Wei was Shouyangling, and so on. For the Western Han, calling the tomb for 陵 "Hill" was sort of justified, the Jin tombs were much more modest.

Thanks for that info! Yeah, I got sidelined by how they weren't literally hills.
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:52 pm

357: Why did Fu Sheng keep the astrology office anyway

2. 逸夫婦共載鹿車 = Yi Yi and his wife rode in one small carriage together (鹿車 is a small cart or carriage, not necessarily drawn by a deer. It is usually seen as a sign of frugality)

子璋從數十騎 = Yi Zhang, with dozens of riders in his entourage,

閉車不與言 = shut the carriage door and did not speak with him. (與 = with; the object pronoun 之 is omitted)

深責之 = Yi Yi chastised Yi Zhang severely

璋猶不悛 = But Yi Zhang still didn’t smarten up. (悛 = to repent)

逸常憂其敗 = Yi Yi often worried about his own downfall (其 = his)

克已守道 = I practised self-discipline (克已 = literally “conquering self”) and kept to the Way

於龍城置留臺: For 留臺, see http://www.chinesewords.org/dict/209091-141.html . Basically the administrative office “left behind” when an emperor moves the capital city

蓋以幽州刺史鎭龍城也 = He was basically having the Inspector of Youzhou guard Longcheng.

4. 秦有司奏 = The Astrology Office of Qin reported to Fu Sheng (奏 = not just saying, but presenting a request or some information to the emperor. 有司 = “the relevant office”)

5. 杏城在馬蘭山北, 姚萇置杏城鎭: Xingcheng, not Shacheng

王欽盧: Wang Qinlu (“lu” is missing)

各將兵招納諸羌、胡 = to go with their troops to entice the Qiang and the other tribes to surrender. (招納 = to recruit, to invite surrender)

羌、胡及秦民歸之者五萬餘戶: 50k+ Qiang and other tribal households joined them (歸之)

襄堅壁不戰: This is a bit more active than what you have. 堅壁 = to strengthen walls (verb + object). So this may better be translated as “Yao Xiang dug in and refused to do battle”.

然其為人強狠 = However, he is unyielding and fierce in nature. (然 = “however”, indicating a contrary statement to the previous)

若鼓噪揚旗,直壓其壘,彼必忿恚而出: This is an “if... then...” statement. I’m not sure if your “you must provoke him into coming out” is meant to be the “consequence” of the “if” (doesn’t sound that way to me). A more direct way of saying this would be “if you make loud noises and wave your flags and march straight at his fort, then he will surely be angered and come out”

悉眾出戰 = brought out all his soldiers to meet them in battle

萇 is pronounced "zhang (zh-ang)" : This is going to be so confusing...

數眾辱黃眉 = [but instead] insulted Fu Huangmei multiple times (數) in public (眾)

事連王公親戚,死者甚眾: the “numerous” meaning didn’t get translated. Maybe: “Numerous relatives of the princely or ducal houses were implicated and killed as well.”

在牀曰尸,在棺曰柩 = When [a body] is lying on a bed, it’s referred to as 尸. When it is lying in a coffin, it’s referred to as a 柩. (This is a general explanation for the word 柩. The text is just saying that Yao Xiang kept his dad’s coffin in the army.)

6. 塞北 = beyond the northern borders

俘斬十餘萬 = capture or killing over a hundred thousand

獲馬十三萬匹 = seizing 130k horses

其後訛爲「鐵勒」 = Later on, they became mistakenly known as the “Tiele” (訛 = to pass false rumours or mistaken information)

匈奴入居塞內者凡十九種 = There were 19 branches of Xiongnu who moved to live within the borders (塞內).

河間國 = Hejian?

8. 東海大魚化為龍,男皆為王女為公: I approve.

引見 = He summoned Niu Yi to him

調之曰 = and teased him, saying

動負百石 = he can bear great weight when he walks (百石 = a hundred dan)

雖服大車,未經峻壁 = Although he has drawn great carriages, he has not be tested along sheer cliffs.

願試重載,乃知勳績 = But I am willing to try carrying a heavy burden, and by that you may see what I can achieve.

公嫌所載輕乎?= Do you consider your current load too light?

轅前曰軛,加之牛項。: missing, but not sure if it’s necessary to include: “The yoke is the thing before the axle, and it is placed upon the neck of an ox”

9. 或連月不出 = often not coming out (to attend court) for months

奏事不省,往往寢落 = reports (事) that were submitted (奏) were not read (省), and often were just put aside (寢落 = to put aside, to let fall through the cracks)

左右因以為奸,賞罰無准 = Because of that (因以), those around him committed villainous acts, doling out rewards and punishments wantonly.

或至申酉乃出視朝 = Sometimes Fu Sheng would come out to court only in the 9th or 10th hour (sometime between 4pm and 8pm)

乘醉多所殺戮 = and kill many while being drunk

誤犯而死者,不可勝數 = Those who accidentally violated that order and were executed were innumerable.

燖雞、豚、鵝、鴨 = to remove feathers/hair from those animals by dunking them in boiling water

縱之殿前,數十為群 = and placed them before the hall in groups of dozens

或剝人面皮,使之歌舞,臨觀以為樂 = Or he would flay the skin off people’s faces, and make them sing and dance before him as entertainment.

它日又問: When he again asked the question on another day

陛下刑罰微過 = Your Majesty’s punishments are just slightly (微) over the board

勳舊親戚 = Long-serving and meritorious ministers, as well as family relations,

誅之殆盡 = were almost all exterminated

10. 主上猜忍暴虐 = Our lord is paranoid and cruel

僕,刀鐶上人耳 = I am someone who’s already on the chopping block.

僕裡捨有王猛者 = There is a man called Wang Meng who lives in my house (裡捨 = 裏舍 = private residence)

堅因婆樓以招猛 = Heeding Lu Polou’s advice, he asked Wang Meng to come see him.

語及時事,堅大悅 = when they spoke of current affairs, Fu Jian was greatly pleased.

時譽者,爲時人所稱美也。= The term時譽 means to be praised by one’s contemporaries.

率以刀鐶築殺人: I’m not 100% sure about this one. 刀鐶 means the rings on the blade of a broadsword/dao. 築 can mean to ram on something or to pummel. But I don’t know how you can whack someone to death with just the rings (and not the actual sharp part of the dao)

言將爲生所殺也 = He meant he was about to be killed by Fu Sheng. (爲 A所B is a passive construction, meaning to be B-ed by A )

或曰:刀以鋒刃爲用,刀鐶以上無所用之;婆樓以自喻。= Another explanation: a broadsword is useful because of the blade. The rings on it are useless, and Lu Polou was using them as a metaphor for his situation.

不世出者,言世間不常生此人。= The term 不世出 means that a man of this calibre is not often born into this world.

11. 昨夜三月並出 = Last night, three moons appeared at once.

自去月上旬 = Since early last month

沉陰不雨 = it’s been dark and cloudy but with no rain

撲殺之 = threw him to his death.

12. 此殿下之事也 = This matter concerns Your Highness as well

生夜對侍婢: I think it should be “palace maid”. Maiden is just a general term for a young .woman

帥壯士數百潛入雲龍門: sneaked through the Yunlong Gate with some hundreds of men

何不拜之!= Why do you not make obeisance to me?

何不速拜,不拜者斬之!= Make obeisance at once, or I will have you killed!

13. 它日有悔,失在諸君。= If anything regrettable come to pass, the blame is on you all.

14. Fu Jian’s brother Fu Rong was well-versed in studies: Sounds vague and redundant... (what exactly was he well-versed in?) Maybe “Fu Rong delighted in books” or “Fu Rong was well-read”?

擊刺 = and other martial arts

少有令譽 = he enjoyed a high reputation since his youth

常與共議國事 = often consulted him on state affairs

薦才揚滯 = recommending talented people and promoting those who had been left behind

但治民斷獄,皆亞於融: But in terms of ____, he was inferior to Fu Rong. (yours isn’t logically wrong, but it’s not making the same point)

史言堅有弟有子如此而無救於敗亡,明天之所棄,非人之所能支也 = The passage is saying, the fact that having such a brother and such a son did not save Fu Jian from his demise is a clear indication that Heaven had abandoned him, and it was beyond any mortal’s strength to stem it.

15. 生屢欲殺堅,賴威營救得免 = On various occasions when Fu Sheng wished to kill Fu Jian, Fu Jian was saved only due to Li Wei’s help. (not necessarily by interceding with Fu Sheng)

猛以兄事之 = Wang Meng served him as he would serve an older brother

善遇之 = and treated him well

20. 禮如咸康而不賀 = the ceremony was like the one in Xiankang 2, and there was no special celebration

21. 與王猛並掌機密 = and had them handle confidential affairs together with Wang Meng

子孫存者皆隨才擢敘 = Their surviving sons and grandsons were promoted or placed in office according to their abilities.

22. 拜置征鎮,欲與燕、秦為敵國 = [Zhang Ping] appointed various generals of the Conquers or Guards ranks, intending to contest with Yan and Qin.

24. 堅與法訣於東堂,慟哭歐血 = Fu Jian and Fu Fa said goodbye to each other in the East Hall, crying bitterly to the point of spitting up blood.

獻哀公 = Duke Xian’ai (“The mourned one who gave up himself”?)

25. 銅雀臺: I thought it’s always been translated as bronze, not copper.

27. 以文案不治,免左丞程卓官,以王猛代之。= Seeing how affairs were in disarray there (文案 = documents, case; 不治 = not dealt with (well); the sense here is the staff there were just sitting on the cases or doing them haphazardly, instead of doing proper work), he fired Cheng Zhuo and replaced him with Wang Meng.

恤困窮 = and cared for the poor and destitute.

禮百神 = He honoured the various spirits (百should be interpreted generically, as in 百姓 or 百官)

旌節義 = heralded those who were virtuous and upright

繼絕世 = found heirs for those whose line would have been broken
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:05 am

率以刀鐶築殺人: I’m not 100% sure about this one. 刀鐶 means the rings on the blade of a broadsword/dao. 築 can mean to ram on something or to pummel. But I don’t know how you can whack someone to death with just the rings (and not the actual sharp part of the dao)

I feel pretty certain you can kill someone by whacking them with the sword ring, you're basically hitting someone with a metal rod.

In medieval Europe there even developed fighting techniques turning around this: https://youtu.be/vwuQPfvSSlo?t=116

Sima Shi had his guards pummel Li Feng to death in 254 and I think it's this episode which is alluded to by 魏、晉之間,率以刀鐶築殺人
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:25 pm

Fornadan wrote:I feel pretty certain you can kill someone by whacking them with the sword ring, you're basically hitting someone with a metal rod.
[...] Sima Shi had his guards pummel Li Feng to death in 254 and I think it's this episode which is alluded to by 魏、晉之間,率以刀鐶築殺人

I guess my question is whether these are rings lining the blade itself (which would be mobile and probably not very ergonomic for killing someone with, but that was the first interpretation I got), or if it's a solid ring at the end of the handle (which would fit the image I get with "築" a lot better). Either way it seems... inefficient, and yet HSX makes it sound like killing people with dao-rings was a fad or something during the Wei and Jin. :P
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:31 pm

To make sense it has to be the latter like on these Sui dynasty swords

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chin ... uoyang.jpg

Was rings along the blade even ever a thing on military swords?
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:07 am

I did a text search for 刀鐶 on ctext, and got 0 hits in the Sanguozhi, 2 hits in the Jinshu, 2 hits in the Weishu and 0 hits in the Songshu.

The first case in the Jinshu is the killing of Li Feng I mentioned above, from the Annals of Emperor Jing (Sima Shi)

豐知禍及,因肆惡言。帝怒,遣勇士以刀鐶築殺之。

[Li] Feng understood calamity had caught up [with him], and because of that indulged in evil words. The Emperor was angry, and sent fierce soldier[s] to use [their] sword rings to pound and kill him.

It seems this is where HSX got his wording from. There really should be a description of Li Feng's death somewhere in the SGZ but I guess it is worded differently.

The Weishu also seems to describe a case of sword ring whacking:

http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&res=8015 ... 0%E9%90%B6

Edit: I was too hasty with the SGZ, it seems Sun Hao also had people beaten to death with sword rings.

江表傳曰:浚在公清忠,值郡荒旱,民無資糧,表求振貸。皓謂浚欲樹私恩,遣人梟首。又尚書熊睦見皓酷虐,微有所諫,皓使人以刀環撞殺之,身無完肌。
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:56 am

I admit that my thought when looking at that was something like this:

Image
"You have attacked us before, and we survived! You cannot defeat us. Submit!"
"We have. You did. We can. No."
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:31 pm

Taishi: That was the kind of sword I was imagining too.

Fornadan wrote:The Weishu also seems to describe a case of sword ring whacking:

http://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=en&res=8015 ... 0%E9%90%B6

Right, I had done a search on ctext too, but ended up being more confused then when I started, which was why I was hesitant in picking one particular interpretation.

1) 武士以刀鐶築勰二下。勰大言曰:「皇天!忠而見殺。」武士又以刀鐶築勰。勰乃飲毒酒,武士就殺之。
(First I would like to admire "二下" here as the earliest instance of 下 used as a measure word for events, as far as I've encountered anyway... of course I should go and do an actual search)
- Whatever it is, being hit this way is not necessarily/immediately fatal, since Yuan (Tuoba) Xie got hit a bunch of times and was still able to complain about his treatment, and at the end he even took poisoned wine to end his own life.

2) 豐知禍及,因肆惡言。帝怒,遣勇士以刀鐶築殺之。
- I find this morbidly comical. Sima Shi: "Gah, Li Feng pissed me off so much! Guards, go kill him! But don't beat him up with your bare hands or strangle him or mutilate him or slash his throat with your blades. Make sure you hit him with the rings on your blades and only that. Now go."

3) 直闔以刀鐶撞其腋下,傷中吐血
- In this case it seems we're talking about a single fixed ring... I mean, it seems kinda awkward to try to hit someone in the armpit with the dangly rings on a long blade. Plus the whole spitting up blood due to internal trauma seems more consistent with being hit with a blunt object.

Edit: I was too hasty with the SGZ, it seems Sun Hao also had people beaten to death with sword rings.

江表傳曰:浚在公清忠,值郡荒旱,民無資糧,表求振貸。皓謂浚欲樹私恩,遣人梟首。又尚書熊睦見皓酷虐,微有所諫,皓使人以刀環撞殺之,身無完肌。

- This one seems to suggest that the "rings on the blade", given that "身無完肌" ("he had no unbroken skin on his body"). If they had pummeled him with the solid ring fixed at the end of the hilt, I'd imagine the victim would show bruising all over, but no actual lacerations.

This all is making me wonder if there are *two* kinds of blade-rings referenced. Do we have someone here on the forum trained in forensics?

PS: Just found the note in Xiahou Shang's bio in the SGZ, Pei's quote from the 魏氏春秋:

大將軍怒,使勇士以刀環築豐腰,殺之。

PPS: Oh dear, searching for 刀環 led to another one:
- From Wei Lue as quoted in Cao Shuang's bio: "[桓]範忿其言觸實,乃以刀環撞其腹。妻時懷孕,遂墮胎死。" (What an asshole)
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:53 am

Well, I still think they all refer to hitting someone with the sword hilt (by holding the sword by the sheated blade presumably), which could be fatal or not depending how hard and how many times the person got struck. I could possibly be convinced by pictures of a Six Dynasties dao with rings on the blade. (incidentaly, this was recently posted in another thread: http://www.kaogu.cn/uploads/soft/Chinese Archaeology/11/The Three Kingdoms tomb at Caiyue, Fancheng District in Xiangyang, Hubei.pdf scroll to page 10 for a Wei bronze dao)

I think it's possible to interpret Li Feng's death as somewhat accidental in a "Insolent cur, I'll have you eat your words. Guard, give him a good beating. Shit, he died, but I was going to execute him anyway." kind of way. (hitting a man with your bare hands hurts, better to use a stick)

This is Achilles Fang's translation of the relevant ZZTJ passage (which follows the version were Sima Shi kills the man himself)

(LI) FENG would not tell him the truth. (SSU-MA) SHIH in anger struck him with the ring of his sword-hilt, killing him; he then sent the corpse to the t'ing-yü.


大將軍怒,使勇士以刀環築豐腰,殺之。

Fang translates this as:

Angered, the Generalissimo had a strong man strike him in the loin with the ring on his sword-hilt, killing him.
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