ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-106)

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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:11 pm

368: I’ve had it with Murong Ping. Ugh, and Yue Wan worked himself to death too. Sucky year for Yan.

2. 以燕主暐幼弱,政不在己,太傅評多猜忌,恐大司馬之任不當其人 = Because he felt that a) Murong Wei was young and weak, b) Murong Wei did not control state affairs himself (政不在己= the administration was not determined by Wei himself), c) Murong Ping was an asshole—that’s why Murong Ke feared that the position of Grand Marshal wouldn’t be given to a suitable man.

今南有遺晉 = the remnants of Jin are in the south

顧我未有隙耳 = and it’s just that they have hitherto seen no rift in our state. (耳 = “it’s just that”, “that’s the only reason”, “that’s all”)

以親疏言之,當在汝及沖 = according to the closeness of kinship, [my position] should go to you and Chong

未堪多難 = and have not experienced much difficulty

慎無冒利而忘害,不以國家為意也 = Take care you do not chase after personal gain and forget about potential dangers, and not think about what’s best for the nation.

而忘亡國敗家之害也 = and forget about the dangers that would destroy both family and nation.

投誠請援,前後相尋,是天以秦賜燕也 = One following another (前後相尋), they are coming over to join us or asking for our aid. This is Heaven delivering Qin to Yan.

天與不取,反受其殃 = (As the saying goes,) “Take not what Heaven offers, and you invite disaster.”

示以禍福: We had this one before—this literally means ‘explain to them how they could invite disaster or gain good fortune’, so basically like “If you stick with Qin, you’ll be killed, but if you join us, we’ll give you goodies”. (it’s not about intention to restore order)

渾一之期,於此乎在矣!= The time for us to unite the world is here!

但能閉關保境足矣 ,平秦非吾事也 = It is sufficient for us to defend our borders. Conquering Qin is not for us to do.

富於春秋 = to be young (literally: have many springs and autumns ahead of him)

觀太傅識度,豈能敵苻堅、王猛乎?= [our lord is still young, and] considering the Grand Tutor’s level of insight and disposition, do you think we are of Fu Jian and Wang Meng’s match?

然,吾雖知之,如言不用何!= Yes, but even if I know it, what can I do if no one listens to me? (言不用 = speech is not used, i.e. my proposals are not adopted. 如 establishes a situation to be considered.何 = what to do? So, “Given that my proposals are not listened to, what can I do?”)

伍子胥 = Wu Zixu

不能事君王也 = I cannot serve another king.

子胥之言 = Wu Zixu’s advice

甬東,越鄙,甬江東也。= Yongdong was a village of Yue(鄙 was a Zhou dynasty administrative district of 500 households). It on the east side of Yong River.

9. 盡俘其眾 = and captured all his men

10. 官貸粟帛以自贍給 = the local officials have to borrow (貸) grain and silk to feed and clothe themselves.

既不可聞於鄰敵 = We must not let our neighbouring enemies know about this, [and this is no way to run a state anyway...]

自力厘校戶籍 = in his exertions to personally verify the census rolls

而又各以品之高卑蔭其親屬 = and each rank was allowed to extend benefits to various degrees of family relations

多者及九族,少者二世 = Those at the top could extend their benefits to family relations of the 9th degree; those with fewer, just to two generations.

13. 汝素長者,固知非汝心也 = You have always been an honest man (長者), so I know you did not mean to do it. [Plus, it cannot be that Emperor Gaozu...]

以長子襲魏公 = He had his eldest son inherit (襲) the title of Duke of Wei (we don’t know his name).

雙獨不得置後 = Shuang alone was not given an heir.

天下者,高祖之天下 = The realm belongs to Emperor Gaozu.

至於仲群,不顧太后 = As for Fu Shuang (Zhongqun), he did not think about you

14. 位在諸侯王上 = his position was elevated to be above all the other lords and princes (stop it Jin, you’re going to run out of positions for this guy)
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:50 am

369: I want to sign up for the Murong Chui fanclub

1. 大司馬溫請與徐、兗二州刺史郗愔、江州刺史桓沖、豫州刺史袁真等伐燕: Huan Wen requested to invade Yan with [those people]

初,愔在北府 = Earlier, when Chi Yin was in command of the Northern Garrison

欲共獎王室 = asking to work with him to support (獎) the imperial house

請督所部出河上 = and offered to march his troops north across the Yellow River. (He wasn’t asking to march together with Huan Wen, just to join Huan Wen’s general efforts in “upholding the imperial house”)

不堪軍旅 = not suited for the army life

慕容恪死,溫乃伐燕 = Huan Wen only campaigned against Yan after Murong Ke’s death

自謂相時而動,可以制勝,豈知爲慕容垂所敗哉!= He thought that, since he had looked for the right opportunity before making a move, he would be sure to win. Little would he expect to be defeated by Murong Chui!

京口兵可用,蓋山川風氣然也,豈必至謝玄用之而後敵人知畏哉!= The soldiers of Jingkou were able, because they were shaped by the land and the atmosphere there. One did not need to wait until Xie Xuan commanded them to know that they would strike fear in the hearts of the enemy. (literally: It didn’t have to take Xie Xuan’s using them for the enemy to fear them.)

2. 燕主暐立皇後可足渾氏,太后從弟尚書令豫章公翼之女也: Murong Wei declared Lady Kezuhun as his empress, she who was the daughter of Kezuhun Yi, who was Prefect of the Masters of Writing, Duke of Yuzhang, and the Empress Dowager’s younger cousin.

3. 水道絕 = the waterway dried up.

因敵為資,復無所得 = if we depend on (looting) the enemy for supplies but end up getting nothing... (i.e., our supplies might get cut off, so we might end up relying on taking stuff from the enemy, but we might not get anything, so this is a dangerous path to choose)

則當此盛夏 = we’re now come to the height of summer (yes, this is literally summer, don’t overthink it)

百姓布野,盡為官有 = the commoners, spread all over the land (since it’s summer and they’re working their fields), will come under our influence

易水以南必交臂請命矣 = and all south of the Yi River will submit to our command

但恐明公以此計輕銳 = But perhaps you will consider this plan careless and hasty

則莫若頓兵河、濟 = then, you’d be better off garrisoning along the Yellow and Ji Rivers

俟資儲充備,至來夏乃進兵 = Wait till you stores are fully stocked, and advance next summer.

雖如賒遲,然期於成功而已 = Even though there would be a delay, you would have hope of a guaranteed victory.

捨此二策而連軍北上,進不速決,退必愆乏 = If you dismiss both these ideas and continue your march northward, you would suffer from blunders and shortages when you withdraw, if victory cannot be determined swiftly.

賊因此勢以日月相引,漸及秋冬= Should that happen, the enemy will draw out our engagement, by days and months, until autumn and winter arrive

且北土早寒,三軍裘褐者少,恐於時所憂,非獨無食而已。= Furthermore, the northern lands become cold early, while few in our armies are equipped with warm jackets. I fear that, by then, we would be worried with more than just the lack of food.

郗超之謀略,豈常人所及哉 = Chi Chao’s strategy was an exceptional one. (lit: an average person wouldn’t have come up with it)

宜桓溫重之也 = Huan Wen would have done well to have respected it.

重之而不從其計者,直趨鄴城,決勝負於一戰,溫所不敢 = If he had respected Chi Chao’s words but didn’t want to follow his strategy, he could have rushed straight at Ye and decided the war in one single battle; but this was not something he dared to do.

頓兵河、濟以待來年,使燕得爲備,溫亦不爲也 = And to encamp along the Yellow and Ji Rivers and wait for the next year, so that Yan could prepare themselves, that was also something that Huan Wen would not do.

4. 賢曰: Li Xian, Prince of Zhanghuai, said...

杜預曰:外黃縣東有黃城,兵亂之後,城邑丘墟,故曰黃墟。= Du Yu remarked: “East of Waihuang County was Huangcheng. After a period of warfare, the city and its environs lay in ruins, and thus it was called Huangxu (Xu meaning “ruins”).” (This was all a quote from Du Yu)

5. 悉羅騰,蓋夷人,以部落爲氏 = Xiluo Teng was a tribesman, and adopted the name of his tribe as his surname.

如《魏書‧官氏志》所載,神元時餘部諸姓內入者叱羅氏、如羅氏之類 = According to the “Records of Official Families”in the Book of Wei (Northern Wei), this was like the Chiluos or the Ruluos, tribesmen who moved within Chinese borders during the time of Emperor Shenyuan (Tuoba Liwei: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuoba_Liwei)

7. 乘流直進 = sailing straight through

今大軍徒逡巡高岸,兵不接刃,未見克殄之理,事將何如?= But now his large army is simply patrolling to and fro along the tops of the cliffs, not offering battle, and showing no signs of definite conquest. How do you think things will play out?

以溫今日聲勢,似能有為 = Judging by Huan Wen’s current impetus, it would seem like he would win.

溫專制其國,晉之朝臣未必皆與之同心 = Huan Wen exerts sole control over their kingdom, and the ministers of Jin might not all be on his side.

故溫之得志,眾所不願也,必將乖阻以敗其事 = Therefore, they would not be willing to see Huan Wen get his way, and would definitely create hurdles and challenges to obstruct him.

又,溫驕而恃眾,怯於應變 = Furthermore, Huan Wen is haughty, overly-confident in his superior numbers, but too timid to make decisions to meet changing situations.

大眾深入,值可乘之會,反更逍遙中流,不出赴利 = His grand host has penetrated deep into the country, and this is the most oppotune time for them to act; instead, he lets his troops tarry along the way rather than marching forth to secure victory.

段思 = Duan Si (not En)

晉人輕剽 = Jin soldiers are rash and impulsive.

11. 彼幸吾未至,必晝夜疾趨 = Glad that I have not come upon him yet, he will certainly be fleeing swiftly through day and night.

俟其士眾力盡氣衰 = Once they are fatigued and their morale has exhuasted

乃帥八千騎徐行躡其後 = So he, leading 8k riders, followed them slowly.

溫果兼道而進 = Indeed, Huan Wen marched on with full speed.

及溫於襄邑 = and caught up with Huan Wen at Xiangyi.

伏於襄邑東澗中 = ...ambushed along the streams east of Xiangyi

與垂夾擊溫 = He and Murong Chui attacked Huan Wen from either side

死者復以萬計 = killing tens of thousands of Jin soldiers (not sure where you got 30k from)

又破之,死者復以萬計 = also killing tens of thousands.

12. 又免冠軍將軍鄧遐官 = He also dismissed Deng Xian from office.

13. 猛接以平生,問晷東方之事 = Wang Meng talked about the old days with him, and then inquired about the affairs of the east (Yan)
陰欲自托於猛,頗洩其實。= He secretly wanted to secure Wang Meng’s patronage, and thus he leaked much information to him.

14. 秦使至燕,燕之君臣朝服備禮,灑掃宮庭,然後敢見。今秦王欲野見之,使臣不敢聞命! = When Qin envoys came to Yan, the Lord of Yan and his ministers would only dare to receive them after dressing in their formal clothes, preparing the proper rites, and cleaning the halls and the palace grounds. But now the Lord of Qin wishes to meet me out in the fields. I dare not accept this invitation!

何堂居之有 = He does not have to stay in his halls all the time!

《春秋》亦有遇禮 = ... records rites to be used for chance meetings

晉室不綱,靈祚歸德 = The house of Jin has fallen into disorder, and the Mandate of Heaven has gone to those who are virtuous.

而桓溫猖狂: 猖狂 is better as “violent”, “wild”, or “aggressive”

愧其不競,以為鄰憂 = ashamed that they were not strong enough, and thus causing trouble for their neighbour

西使之辱,敬待有加 = When the envoys from the west humbled themselves to visit us, we treated them with the utmost respect.

交聘方始 = this is just the beginning of our relationship (交聘 should be interpreted more generally than “exchanging envoys and gifts”)

若忽慢使臣 = But to slight an envoy

豈修好之義乎 = How is this supposed to convey sincerity in building good relationship? (義 should be interpreted as “idea”, like “how is this the idea of building good ties?”)

蓋因事權行,其禮簡略,豈平居容與之所為哉!= In that kind of situation, the rites could be simplified because they had to be tailored to suit unexpected circumstances. How could this be applied to a case where one is simply staying home at leisure? (I.e., if you rule all the world, then yes you can say “yeah I’m travelling abroad in the imperial carriage, we need to tailor the rites”. But the realm is split and you’re just staying home, so you can’t use that excuse. And in the Rites, you’re allowed to use simplified rites if you have a chance encounter and are forced to bend the rules to make things work, but here you are at your leisure in your own home, so how can you claim the same?)

客使單行,誠勢屈於主人;然苟不以禮,亦不敢從也。 = It’s true that an envoy, travelling alone and away from his home, has less power than the host of the land; however, if he is not treated with propriety, he may not bow to the host’s demands.

中國有赤縣神州,赤縣神州內有九州: I’m not sure this lends to a direct translation. “In the Central Realm is the Chixian Shenzhou (Divine Continent of the Crimson Districts???). The Chixian Shenzhou is divided into 9 provinces.” In Chinese mythology, there are a number of continents in the earthly realm (9 is just a figurative number), each surrounded by a sea (州 is originally just “land surrounded by water”, but it also came to mean “a district, a settled land”). In the middle is the continent where China (conveniently) was. 赤縣神州 was the land ruled by the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi) and thus the area where Chinese culture thrived.

堅乃為之設行宮,百僚倍位,然後延客= So Fu Jian constructed a temporary palace (行宮 = an imperial residence outside of the capital) and had all the ministers be present, before receiving the guest

堅與之私宴 = Fu Jian invited Liang Chen to a private feast (not everyone)

其餘或以文進,或以武用,官皆稱職,野無遺賢。= The rest have either been appointed by their administrative talents, or employed for their martial abilities. Every office is held by a person of suitable ability, and no worthy man is left unemployed.

倣古私覿之禮也 =[the private feast] was modeled after private meetings between a lord and a visiting envoy from antiquity.

15. 堅使典客館琛於弈捨 = Fu Jian had Liang Yi serve as the Director of Guests, and had him lodge Liang Chen at Liang Yi’s house.

與諸葛亮惟公朝相見,退無私面,余竊慕之 = He only met with Zhuge Liang in public, during court, and never in private. I have admired that.

今使之即安私室,所不敢也 = But now you ask me to stay at your private lodgings; I dare not do that.

論其本心,各有所在 = Our hearts are with different places.

此特臨時使之典客耳 = This position was filled on a temporary basis for receiving special envoys.

16. 堅使太子延琛相見 = Fu Jian had his crown prince summon Liang Chen for an audience.

秦人欲使琛拜太子 = The Qin staff wanted to make Liang Chen make obeisance to the crown prince

先諷之曰 = so they admonished him thus ahead of time (諷 = to admonish)

鄰國之君,猶其君也;鄰國之儲君,亦何以異乎!= The lord of a neighbouring state is just like one’s own lord. Why would you treat the heir apparent of a neighbouring state differently?

天子之子視元士,欲其由賤以登貴也。尚不敢臣其父之臣,況它國之臣乎!= The son of an emperor is considered like one of the common gentry, so that he may rise from a lowly place to the highest position; he cannot dare to treat his father’s vassals as his own vassals (the first 臣 is a verb: “to treat as a vassal”), let alone vassals of another state!

苟無純敬,則禮有往來 = Between people who are sincerely respectful to each other, courtesy is reciprocated.

情豈忘恭,但恐降屈為煩耳 = It is not that I do not honour you in my heart, but just that I fear, by demeaning myself, I might cause trouble.

言當答拜也 : this is a HSX note at the end of Liang Chen’s speech. “This is saying, [the crown prince] should return the bowing/greeting/paying respect.”

18. 但除評及樂安王臧,餘無能為矣 = You only need to get rid of Murong Ping and Murong Zang, and the rest will not be able to do anything (to you).

骨肉相殘而首亂於國,吾有死而已,不忍為也。= If, by infighting with my flesh and blood I cause chaos to erupt in the kingdom, I would rather die. I can’t bear to do it.

必不可彌縫,吾寧避之於外,餘非所議。= If we really cannot mend the rift between us, I would rather exile myself to avoid them. Everything else is out of the question.

19. 太傅疾賢,功高望重,愈見猜邪? = The Grand Tutor is jealous of good people, and the greater your accomplishments and reputation, the more he distrusts you? (but yes, the Grand Tutor is mad too.)

一旦禍發,疾於駭機 = Once they move against us, we wouldn’t be able to respond in time.

今欲保族全身,不失大義 = Now, if you wish to save yourself and the whole family, and yet not abandon the righteous path... (i.e., “and yet not commit a disloyal act”)

此幸之大者也 = (If this works out,) this would be the most fortunate outcome.

亦其次也 = That would be the second best outcome.

20. 世子令斷後 = Murong Ling held the rear

今日之計,捨此安之!= What else could we do but this? (lit: As for the plan for today, if we discard this, what else do we have?)

俄有獵者數百騎四面而來,抗之則不能敵,逃之則無路,不知所為。= Soon, some hundreds of hunters were riding towards them from all directions. Murong Chui, unable to either fight them off or escape from them, did not know what to do.

會獵者鷹皆飛揚,眾騎散去 = But right then, the hunters’s hawks all flew away, and the riders dispersed.

21. 構事以來,人尤忿恨 = Ever since he plotted against you, people have only become more furious at him.

今鄴城之中,莫知尊處,如嬰兒之思母 = Now, in the city of Ye, none know of your whereabouts, and all are like infants who miss their mother.

大匡朝政,以輔主上 = Rectify the administration, so that you may support our lord.

願給騎數人,足以辦之 = Please give me a few riders. That will be sufficient for me to do this deed.

子馬奴 = Murong Chui’s sons’ stablehand

至河陽,為津吏所禁,斬之而濟 = When they reached Heyang, they were stopped by the official in charge of the crossing there. They whacked his head off and crossed the river.

遂自洛陽與段夫人、世子令、令弟寶、農、隆、兄子楷、舅蘭建、郎中令高弼俱奔秦 = And thus, from Luoyang, Murong Chui fled to Qin together with [a bunch of people]. (They were with him all along. This is just saying that he got to Luoyang and from there went on to Qin)

22. 此自然之數也 = This is only the natural course of things. (Or: This much is destined.)

世封幽州 = ...grant all of Youzhou as a fief to you and your descendents

使卿去國不失為子之孝,歸朕不失事君之忠 = So that, though you left your state, you would not be considered unfilial as a son, and that, though you came to me, you would not be considered disloyal to your lord.

本邦之榮,非所敢望 = To be honoured with the bestowment of my homeland is not something I dare to wish for.

賞賜巨萬: What’s a better way to say he gave them a lot of money?

每進見,屬目觀之 = Every time they went to visit Fu Jian, Fu Jian would look at them intently. (Not sure how to phrase it so it sounds less creepy)

若借以風雲,將不可複製 = If an opportunity arises for them to act (lit: if they manage to get wind and clouds), you will not be able to subdue them again.

吾方收攬英雄以清四海 = I’m just desiring to recruit all the great heroes to assist me in pacifying the realm

且其始來,吾已推誠納之矣 = Furthermore, when he had just arrived, I had already accepted him with great sincerity.

匹夫猶不棄言,況萬乘乎! = Even a common man does not eat his words, let alone the Son of Heaven! (萬乘 = one entitled to 10k chariots = Son of Heaven)

堅相王猛惡垂雄略: how about “...because of Murong Chui’s ambition and astuteness”?

23. 燕魏尹范陽王德素與垂善: [...] has always been on friendly terms with Murong Chui

皆坐免官 = They were all dismissed from office for their connection to Murong Chui.

外口籍籍 = There are lots of rumours going on outside

粗可消謗 = and perhaps then you can dispel some of the rumours

高泰其領袖也 = Gao Tai is their leader

24. 謂行者以二驛爲程,若一程而行四驛,是兼程也 = Generally, a traveller covers two post stations in a leg of a journey. If in one leg one covers four post stations, that’s called 兼程. (程: a distance, a segment of a journey)

秦必有窺燕之謀 = Qin is certainly scheming to take advantage of Yan.

秦豈肯受叛臣而敗和好哉!: Not sure if you’re capturing the rhetoricalness (?) of the question. He’s really saying “there’s no way Qin would, for the sake of a defector, break the peace.”

明而善斷 = Perceptive and decisive.

苻堅雖聘問相尋 = Although Fu Jian keeps sending envoys to convey their regards (or: to ask if we’re well)

非能慕樂德義,不忘久要也 = He’s not doing it for virtue and kindness, or to ensure everlasting friendship.

前出兵洛川,及使者繼至 = Between their earlier march out of the Luoyang region, and the streams of envoys

國之險易虛實,彼皆得之矣 = they have scouted out the lay of our land, and all our defences and vulnerable points.

今吳王垂又往從之,為其謀主 = And now the Prince of Wu has gone to join him and to serve as his adviser

暐召太傅評謀之 = Murong Wei summoned Murong Ping to discuss this.

且苻堅庶幾善道 = Furthermore, Fu Jian has so far behaved more or less properly towards us

言苻堅雖未能純以善道交鄰,猶庶幾焉 = This is saying, although Fu Jian hadn’t been able to treat his neighbours with complete decency, he’s more or less there.

25. 越言誕而視遠 = Shi Yue talks wildly and his eyes are looking far away. [He’s not here to keep good relations]

益為其所輕矣: Passive sentence—“we will be scorned by them even more”

26. 守宰 = Officials in local governments (provincial or county officials)

或武人出於行伍,或貴戚生長綺紈 = They are either fighting men who came from the army, or aristocrats who grew up in luxury.

既非鄉曲之選,又不更朝廷之職 = Neither are they chosen by the local people nor have they gained experience in government office.

加之黜陟無法: = Furthermore, officials are demoted or promoted arbitrarily. (Officials is better than ministers here, since we’re talking about people of local offices. 黜陟 = demote and promote)

是以百姓困弊,寇盜棄斥,綱頹紀紊,莫相糾攝。= This is why (是以) the people are destitute and bandits fill the roads; our administration is in disorder and laws are disrespected, and none bother to correct and regulate each other.

又官吏猥多,逾於前世 = In addition, the number of officials and clerks have increased dramatically, surpassing the numbers in previous rules

大燕戶口,數兼二寇: Our population is more than that of our two enemies combined

而比者戰則屢北 = And yet every time we do battle, we have lost.

皆由守宰賦調不平,侵漁無已,行留俱窘,莫肯致命故也。= This is all because the local officials have been unfair in levying taxes from the people, endlessly exploiting and robbing the commoners. Both those who are conscripted and those who remain at home are destitute, and none would devote their lives to our cause.

僮侍廝役尚在其外 = not counting servants and errand-runners

士民承風,競為奢靡 = gentry and commoners alike, influenced by the court, vie to be the most extravagant and wasteful

彼秦、吳僭僻,猶能條治所部,有兼併之心 = Qin claims the imperial title falsely, and Jin is in a farflung place, and yet they are able to govern their lands with order and aspire to conquer us.

而我上下因循,日失其序 = While in our lands, those in low places take after those in high places, and day by day we fall into disorder.

謂宜精擇守宰,並官省職 = We should select our local officials carefully, combine offices and cut back positions

使公私兩遂 = ensure that affairs are settled to the satisfaction of both public and private parties

節抑浮靡,愛惜用度: This is already “cut back on luxuries and wastefulness, and be thrifty in our expenditures” (there’s nothing about appreciating systems)

如此,則溫、猛可梟 = If we do that, we can take the heads of Huan Wen and Wang Meng (梟= to decapitate)

雖乏貢御,無能為患 = though he rarely pays tribute to us, he is incapable of being a threat

不若移於並土,控制西河 = It would be better for us to move the troops to Bingzhou to control the region west of the Yellow River.

疏奏,不省。= The petition was submitted, but the court sent back no reply.

鮮卑被髮左衽 = The Xianbei keep their hair unbound and wear their clothes with the lapels on the left

27. 以謀後舉 = to plan the next move

28. 有國有家者,分災救患,理之常也。= It is only the reasonable thing to do for someone who has a state and a home to help those faced with disaster.

29. “At that time, there were frequent such demands”: should be “there were frequently”

加之疫癘 = and on top of that, there was an epidemic

百姓嗟怨 = the people were sighing and grumbling (or, the people were sorrowful and resentful)

直書時事 = giving an unbiased account of the events of the time

何至乃如尊君所言 = But it’s not as bad as how your father put it!

自是關君門戶事 = There will be something happening that concerns your family!

其子遽拜謝,請改之 = Sun Sheng’s son apologized and asked to be allowed to modify the text.

及孝武帝購求異書,得之於遼東人,與見本不同,遂兩存之 = When Emperor Xiaowu hunted for rare books, he got a copy of it from someone in Liaodong. Seeing that it was different from the copy he had, he kept both of them.

晉人於人子之前稱其父爲尊君、尊公。= In Jin, people used the terms 尊君 or 尊公 to refer to someone’s father when speaking to the son
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:18 am

中國有赤縣神州,赤縣神州內有九州: I’m not sure this lends to a direct translation. “In the Central Realm is the Chixian Shenzhou (Divine Continent of the Crimson Districts???). The Chixian Shenzhou is divided into 9 provinces.” In Chinese mythology, there are a number of continents in the earthly realm (9 is just a figurative number), each surrounded by a sea (州 is originally just “land surrounded by water”, but it also came to mean “a district, a settled land”). In the middle is the continent where China (conveniently) was. 赤縣神州 was the land ruled by the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi) and thus the area where Chinese culture thrived.


The Nienhauser translation of the Shiji offers the following translation in the biography of Master Zou:

"He thought that the Central Region which scholars spoke of occupied just one of the eighty-one parts of the world. The Central Region he called "the Sacred Township of the Red County." The "Sacred Township of the Red County" itself contained nine lands, the nine which Yu ordered, but these could not be counted as "lands". Outside the Central Region there were nine places like the "Sacred Township of the Red County" and these were what he called the "nine lands". There was a small ocean around each of them and men and animals could not travel between them, each located as if placed in the midst of a sphere. There were nine places like these and then a great ocean surrounding them. Heaven and Earth met there."

以為儒者所謂中國者,於天下乃八十一分居其一分耳。中國名曰赤縣神州。赤縣神州內自有九州,禹之序九州是也,不得為州數。中國外如赤縣神州者九,乃所謂九州也。於是有裨海環之,人民禽獸莫能相通者,如一區中者,乃為一州。如此者九,乃有大瀛海環其外,天地之際焉。
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:13 pm

Interesting. I wonder why he chose the word "township". It's not the most obvious translation for something that is meant to denote a large area. I also dislike the implication that 赤縣 is a subordinate concept of 神州 or vice versa (which "of" in English implies), since both "Chixian" and "Shenzhou" have been used to refer to "China". It even makes less sense when you consider how "Chixian Shenzhou" was the Central Lands--hardly just a township!

I think the point in Master Zou's theory is that the word 州 refers to two things, both the larger land (what I like to call a "continent", since the idea is it's surrounded by water and neither man nor beast may traverse beyond it), of which there are 9 (aka 九州, and there are also 9 of these groups of 9 lands), and a province, which the Great Yu ordered 9 of ( 《史記卷一.五帝本紀第一》集解注馬融 曰:「禹平水土,置九州。舜以冀州之北廣大,分置并州。燕、齊遼遠,分燕置幽州,分齊為營州。於是為十二州也。」--the Yu reference is really about the later concept of "provinces"). "不得為州數" really means "don't mix up these concepts when you're counting lands".

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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:43 pm

Probably due to this:

上古时,炎帝以火德王,炎帝统辖的土地叫赤县;黄帝以土德王,黄帝统辖的土地叫神州。黄帝打败了炎帝后,统一起来就称作神州赤县或赤县神州。

The area under the rule of the first primordial Emperor of China, Yan, was called 赤县。The Yellow Emperor's territory was 神州。When the Yellow Emperor defeated Yan and united the territory, it was collectively called 赤县神州。

More information can be found here, with respective sources, though I lack the brain juice in the morning to translate. :lol:

http://www.mondlango.com/kulturo/wl16.htm
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:37 am

Mega Zarak, I've seen that quote on various sites, but I can't find the original texts supporting that claim. In fact, I can't seem to find anything that refers to Chixian before references to Master Zou.
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:29 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Interesting. I wonder why he chose the word "township". It's not the most obvious translation for something that is meant to denote a large area.


The translator actually adds the following note:

The word zhou 州 had several meanings: 1= a river islet, 2) an administrative unit containing 2500 families, 3) a much larger larger area, usually translated simply as "region" or "land". Zou Yan here seems to be using this ambiguity to imply that what must have seemed like the vast area that China occupied at the time was in reality very small. Thus for the first occurrence of zhou here, either the first or second meaning would be appropriate (since Zou claimed China was surrounded by water). We have chosen the second meaning, translated by Hucker, to emphasize the contrast with "region".

I also dislike the implication that 赤縣 is a subordinate concept of 神州 or vice versa (which "of" in English implies), since both "Chixian" and "Shenzhou" have been used to refer to "China". It even makes less sense when you consider how "Chixian Shenzhou" was the Central Lands--hardly just a township!


I suppose it would depend on what sort of history these concepts had before Master Zou. The Shiji seems to imply Master Zou invented the name 赤縣神州
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:23 am

The problem is that chinese divisions kept getting divided, with them occasionally adding new types. Even for the Three Kingdoms period there were thirteen zhous in 189 (I am counting Jiao as one for simplicity), seventeen in 230 (Ping being unofficial but counted), and nineteen in 280. But over the dynasties:

Quin: Commandery > County
Han/Jin: Province > Commandery > County
Sui: Zhou > County
Tang, Song: Circuit > Zhou/Prefecture > County
Yuan: Province > Circuit > Zhou/Prefecture > County
Ming: Province > Prefecture > Zhou > County
Qing: Province > Prefecture > County/Zhou/Subprefecture

So what was a big zhou early on may well have been down to only 2500 families a few centuries later (Twitchett's book says they were up to 358 zhous and 43 prefectures by 639 AD!)
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:13 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Mega Zarak, I've seen that quote on various sites, but I can't find the original texts supporting that claim. In fact, I can't seem to find anything that refers to Chixian before references to Master Zou.


I would personally treat those as a philosophical viewpoint rather than historical reference. This is akin to Thales' view of the world which couldn't be proven or otherwise during his time. Furthermore, if we are to take his words literally, isn't there a well-known arithmetic error? Based on his 大九州說:

所谓中国者,于天下乃八十一分居其一分耳。中国名曰赤县神州。赤县神州内自有九州,禹之序九州是也,不得为州数,中国外如赤县神州者九,乃所谓九州也。

That would mean your diagram should have 90 州 instead of 81. This could be one of the reasons why we couldn't find any earlier reference. In all, I suspect Zou Yan's key intent was to put forth his viewpoint that the world was actually bigger than it was (as defined by Yu), hence the "intentional" shrinkage in the definition of 县, 州, etc.
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Re: ZZTJ Translations: The Sixteen Kingdoms Era (Books 95-10

Unread postby Fornadan » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:05 pm

Mega Zarak wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:Mega Zarak, I've seen that quote on various sites, but I can't find the original texts supporting that claim. In fact, I can't seem to find anything that refers to Chixian before references to Master Zou.


I would personally treat those as a philosophical viewpoint rather than historical reference. This is akin to Thales' view of the world which couldn't be proven or otherwise during his time.


I think the question was rather about which text the following can be sourced back to

"The area under the rule of the first primordial Emperor of China, Yan, was called 赤县。The Yellow Emperor's territory was 神州。When the Yellow Emperor defeated Yan and united the territory, it was collectively called 赤县神州"

It's not in Shiji's chapter on Master Zou so it must have come down to us from somewhere.

Furthermore, if we are to take his words literally, isn't there a well-known arithmetic error? Based on his 大九州說:

I noticed that as well, but isn't it just as likely to be an error in paraphrasing by the Shiji or the Shiji's sources? Nine times nine is neater than nine times ten.
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