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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:53 am
by Human5
There was also one long footage that showed Belson Camp after it was liberated and showed the mass pits of dead bodies.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:01 pm
by Tao Qian
TooMuchBaijiu wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstand you, but I can think of quite a few films that deal with the Holocaust. Hollywood's churned out so many, in fact, I fear horror of it all may be diluted by such an output. People roll their eyes at "another Holocaust movie" nowdays, when fifteen years ago they'd think such films were the saddest things ever made. In fact, I wish other genocides in history would get as much attention, so that people may remember that hatred this deep wasn't born and did not die with the Nazis.

As for documentaries, there is Shoah, a film that is as excellent as it is long. And it is long.


No, of course there are movies about the Hollocaust (Shoah is quite good, actually). But what I was trying to say is this: if you see Schindler´s list for example, you are watching a movie about a specific group. You know them, you can be sad for them. But this is just a group, in some way you are not perceiving the numbers...

It is the same in the news nowadays, if you read an article about thousands dying of starvation in Somalia, you don´t get involved (of course you don´t like it) but when there is a serial killer, that kills 10 children in your city/country, you can imagine it, you feel it...

I don´t know if is more clear now...

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:58 pm
by Erdrick
Tao Qian wrote:
TooMuchBaijiu wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstand you, but I can think of quite a few films that deal with the Holocaust. Hollywood's churned out so many, in fact, I fear horror of it all may be diluted by such an output. People roll their eyes at "another Holocaust movie" nowdays, when fifteen years ago they'd think such films were the saddest things ever made. In fact, I wish other genocides in history would get as much attention, so that people may remember that hatred this deep wasn't born and did not die with the Nazis.

As for documentaries, there is Shoah, a film that is as excellent as it is long. And it is long.


No, of course there are movies about the Hollocaust (Shoah is quite good, actually). But what I was trying to say is this: if you see Schindler´s list for example, you are watching a movie about a specific group. You know them, you can be sad for them. But this is just a group, in some way you are not perceiving the numbers...

It is the same in the news nowadays, if you read an article about thousands dying of starvation in Somalia, you don´t get involved (of course you don´t like it) but when there is a serial killer, that kills 10 children in your city/country, you can imagine it, you feel it...

I don´t know if is more clear now...



That, and let's be honest- a movie tends to be 2 hours- an event lasting the better part of a decade, involving upwards of 10 million people, (including the non-Jews as well as the people running the camp)- its not feasible. Now, if there was a maxi-series, (think RTK-style shows, in terms of length/episodes), that might, MIGHT be feasible. (On the other hand, really, who the hell would want to watch that). There have been numerous docu's on the Holocaust, typically on pieces here or bits there- you focus because the whole thing is too much for the format to wrap around.

For the people "unable" to grasp the breadth of it, there is also the time factor- it wasn't an immediate event- it occurred over many years. Almost none of these people who "are unable to believe it could happen" don't seem to have that problem when it comes to killing 70K+ people in a few seconds with a single bomb- which seems almost as unbelieveable. (And they always seem to grasp at straws- the gas chambers couldn't have been used, there weren't enough or the like- when they conveniently forget the ovens, firing squads, or simple overwork and starvation.


As for today, it can also be overload in terms of how many crises there are- Somalia is just one of the awful problems you can find out about, and frankly are too big to be solved by any single person or NGO... or, even if a large NGO or government goes full bore, it means the help going to the Bangladeshi farmers or the people displaced by the Ural flooding or Argentina's poor is taken away to deal with problem X... That realization of a zero sum support structure can be depressing, and in the end, make one's own problems seem less important, but something that can be tackled.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:31 pm
by Jordan
I've been re-reading parts of this thread (mainly the arguments between dajiangjun and everybody else), and find it interesting.

People were definitely killed in the Holocaust, including several members of my family such as great-grandparents. 6,000,000? I don't know and I don't really care. I tend not to accept numbers at face value anyways, since they are never exact. It might very well have been less people killed, but in the end it doesn't matter to me at all. The fact of the matter is that people (not just Jews, but also plenty of other Socialists, various other kinds of political dissidents, etc.) were murdered deliberately by the Nazis. Among these people killed were a large number of Jews.

The discussion about Israel probably could have been in another topic, but I do believe that the Israel lobby (i.e. AIPAC) is too strong in the United States, that the country of Israel is hardly an ideal state, that we overly support them and that there is a blatant bias in the media in favor of Israel. I think this issue needs to be separated from Holocaust belief or Denial though. They are tangentially related but are not the same issue.

And I also believe that banning Holocaust denial and creating rules against it is terrible folly. The discussion on the subject needs to be open.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:44 pm
by Shen Ai
Banning Holocaust denial prevents a lot of offences being publicly shown. I would have done the same, if I had the power.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:46 am
by Erdrick
Jordan wrote:And I also believe that banning Holocaust denial and creating rules against it is terrible folly. The discussion on the subject needs to be open.



What we need is more public discussion on it, in the context of "can you believe these morons?"- stop letting the crackpots get "equal say", call them on their BS, prove how wrong they are, and ridicule the daylights out of them for it publicly. But don't ban it, because THEN, what are you trying to hide?- see, its a CONSPIRACY!!! *oye*

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:23 am
by Shikanosuke
Erdrick wrote:
Jordan wrote:And I also believe that banning Holocaust denial and creating rules against it is terrible folly. The discussion on the subject needs to be open.



What we need is more public discussion on it, in the context of "can you believe these morons?"- stop letting the crackpots get "equal say", call them on their BS, prove how wrong they are, and ridicule the daylights out of them for it publicly. But don't ban it, because THEN, what are you trying to hide?- see, its a CONSPIRACY!!! *oye*


All good points.