The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:32 pm

dajiangjun wrote:I have never claimed that I was enlightened or more intelligent than anyone, but I have seen through the lies, and I have become so familiar with the normal criteria our media tries to present that I can pick it out nearly every time. I am not alone in this one, and there are people from all across the political spectrum, Left to Right, atheist to theist, Jew and Gentile, rich and poor who can also see. Take a look for a video of Ron Paul and Ben Stein, Ron Paul raises the notion that we must ask ourselves why the terrorists hate us and Ben Stein proceeds to go on an emotional rant calling those who fight us psychos and calling Ron Paul an anti-Semite for dare suggesting that we (he thought Paul meant Israel) are occupiers.


I think assigning yourself the ability to 'see through the lies', suggesting most other people can't, is suggesting you have become 'enlightened' to some truth. A truth if seen backed up by nothing more than conspiracy talk, links to racist forum-run websites, and youtube videos. All sources which have been repeatedly rebuffed, and not replaced by you with something acceptable to your audience. Perhaps we'd consider your position more compelling if you could produce some evidence which wasn't so blatantly biased?

I'm finished wasting time trying to convince people what is as plain as day to be true.


Overall I have talked myself sick of this subject, and its an everyone vs. me matter, so I am done with it.


Can we just leave these dramatics out? I've seen this repeatedly, and it hasn't come true yet. I get you're frustrated no one finds your theories credible.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby dajiangjun » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:33 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:I think assigning yourself the ability to 'see through the lies', suggesting most other people can't, is suggesting you have become 'enlightened' to some truth. A truth if seen backed up by nothing more than conspiracy talk, links to racist forum-run websites, and youtube videos. All sources which have been repeatedly rebuffed, and not replaced by you with something acceptable to your audience. Perhaps we'd consider your position more compelling if you could produce some evidence which wasn't so blatantly biased?


As I said, many other people can see through these lies as well, even other Jews, I just feel most people do not. Those youtube videos you are so ready to dismiss are by a professional journalist and demonstrate factually a massive pro-Israel bias in the main-stream media. And let us be honest here, a large percentage of Americans have derived almost the entirety of their knowledge of the world from television for the longest time, prior to the internet age nearly a whole generation was reared on TV. The information from the sources I provided can nearly all be cross-referenced with Wikipedia, so it is not biased. Once more you fall for the trap of believing the sources you claim to be unbiased are not biased in some way. So the evidence is there and fully provable from "safe" sources.

Can we just leave these dramatics out? I've seen this repeatedly, and it hasn't come true yet. I get you're frustrated no one finds your theories credible.


Oh there are people that find my theories credible, just not on this forum it would seem. Don't worry it will come true soon enough, why keep providing hard data that proves my point just to have people mindlessly repeat the same thing? "Conspiracy theory...anti-Semite....racist...biased source" That is the sum of most of the rebuttals I have received here. Oh and the other rebuttal I have received, "It's okay that Jews have managed to fill nearly all influential positions in media, government, and education. Despite being an extreme minority, there is nothing strange about it at all, its because they are a intelligent educated people with a culture of accomplishment. I love my corporate masters."
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:10 pm

dajiangjun wrote:
As I said, many other people can see through these lies as well, even other Jews, I just feel most people do not. Those youtube videos you are so ready to dismiss are by a professional journalist and demonstrate factually a massive pro-Israel bias in the main-stream media. And let us be honest here, a large percentage of Americans have derived almost the entirety of their knowledge of the world from television for the longest time, prior to the internet age nearly a whole generation was reared on TV.


Others failings doesn't mean we should therefore accept poor sources.

The information from the sources I provided can nearly all be cross-referenced with Wikipedia, so it is not biased.


Sweet, factually crosschecking from wikipedia.

Once more you fall for the trap of believing the sources you claim to be unbiased are not biased in some way. So the evidence is there and fully provable from "safe" sources.


Yea. Damn me for wanting reputable sources, I'm just one big brainwashed kid.


Oh there are people that find my theories credible, just not on this forum it would seem.


Sure. As you've insisted many times before, there are tons of people out there willing to believe all kinds of things with little to no proof. Obviously you're theories are even found credible in racist websites as well.


Don't worry it will come true soon enough,


Hm? We waiting for an impending history revelation, where suddenly your sources are deemed respectable?


why keep providing hard data that proves my point just to have people mindlessly repeat the same thing? "Conspiracy theory...anti-Semite....racist...biased source" That is the sum of most of the rebuttals I have received here.


I've seen no hard data from you, no matter how stringent you cling to its reputation. And yes, you are under a delusion it seems that you can fully endorse biased evidence and yet distance yourself from its creators. And yes, its conspiracy theory garbage. But we're all just blind, what do we know. You and select few on the other hand, you're good as gold.


Oh and the other rebuttal I have received, "It's okay that Jews have managed to fill nearly all influential positions in media, government, and education. Despite being an extreme minority, there is nothing strange about it at all, its because they are a intelligent educated people with a culture of accomplishment. I love my corporate masters."



I don't think we disagree with the fact that jews are educated. That seems to have been one of our focal points. But jews beings in positions of power, on the other hand, is no conclusive of any corporate master theory bs you seem to want to badly to believe. Perhaps your theory would find more purchase in a forum where such views were not deemed radical. I think you've linked a few.

EDIT: Aren't we done?
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:36 pm

dajiangjun wrote:Yes, but are these South and East Asians in complete control of the media, the treasury department, the federal reserve, and dominating every influential sector in the country?


No, but the facts of their presence and success stand as direct opposition to your claims of Jewish nepotism and ethnocentrism in academia and across all high professional sectors of the economy. Or perhaps it is simply that you keep using those words, but they do not mean what you think they mean.

dajiangjun wrote:The solid evidence is the complete domination, the extreme numerical over-representation of Jews in all important influential sectors.


... and that's it? Freaking seriously? Just a handful of numbers and names, with no kind of critical analysis at what might be underlying this trend? I find it rather sad, actually, that you can't seem to imagine that there might be other, less sinister and more believable explanations for the prominence of Jews in these fields - cultural, historical, structural, even geographic (given that these huge banks, media outlets and public / international institutions are for the most part located in New York City, a city which has an incredibly large, well-established and influential Jewish community as a result of its being an immigrant port) - which do not play into old, recycled, discredited anti-Semitic canards.

dajiangjun wrote:It's okay that Jews have managed to fill nearly all influential positions in media, government, and education. Despite being an extreme minority, there is nothing strange about it at all, its because they are a intelligent educated people with a culture of accomplishment. I love my corporate masters.


Wow. Despite (or perhaps because of) my being a fairly consistent high Tory with some pragmatist influences, on this forum I've been dismissed as a Marxist / communist, a Leftist and a liberal (with some justification, perhaps), but never before as a corporatist arse-kisser. That's pretty funny, actually. 'Course, one of my grandmothers was Jewish, so I guess that must explain it. Never mind that both she and my grandfather were both pretty much dirt-poor most of their lives. :roll:
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Objectivist » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:44 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Others failings doesn't mean we should therefore accept poor sources...

Damn me for wanting reputable sources...

Obviously you're theories are even found credible in racist websites as well...

waiting for an impending history revelation, where suddenly your sources are deemed respectable?


If you have a problem with information someone provides, you should really stick to debating the substance, rather than complaining about the source. If you think the substance is not worth responding to, then perhaps you shouldn't respond? You're not the authority on what is a credible source and what is not. If you're whining about the source and not arguing the point, you're committing an Ad Hominem fallacy.

Where is WeiWenDi with the ad hominem accusations?
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:58 am

Objectivist wrote:
If you have a problem with information someone provides, you should really stick to debating the substance, rather than complaining about the source.



No. Perhaps you missed the point where when one person asserts a hypothesis they have the burden of proof. That burden of proof needs to be supported with reputable information. So there is no discussion to be had until there is substance shown.


If you think the substance is not worth responding to, then perhaps you shouldn't respond?


Someone should always point out biased and incredible sources. That makes it worth responding to. Ok, glad we're done.


You're not the authority on what is a credible source and what is not. If you're whining about the source and not arguing the point, you're committing an Ad Hominem fallacy.


No, I am not the sole source on what is credible. But we make judgments about what is credible all the time. As we all have here, almost unanimously. Even daj admitted the biasedness of his sources.


Your complaint is that I haven't productively contributed to this thread's 'substance' (by pointing out, like everyone else has, that his sources are faulty) and am whining. Yet you've entered the thread to merely call me out, which amounts to the same. So I'm glad we've had this conversation, again.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby fukarming » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:37 am

Actually, why should we care whether the holocaust aka did Hitler/ Nazi Germany systematically kill Jews just for the sake of killing them happen or not?

I don't think there are any doubts that 1. Nazi Germany persecute Jews and make their life a living hell 2. Many Jews die during WWII because of that.

That makes Nazi responsible of the death of the Jews. It didn't make the Nazi any better even if systematically killing didn't occur.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:08 pm

fukarming wrote:Actually, why should we care whether the holocaust aka did Hitler/ Nazi Germany systematically kill Jews just for the sake of killing them happen or not?

I don't think there are any doubts that 1. Nazi Germany persecute Jews and make their life a living hell 2. Many Jews die during WWII because of that.

That makes Nazi responsible of the death of the Jews. It didn't make the Nazi any better even if systematically killing didn't occur.


I don't think it's even a question of systematic extermination but a question of HOW MANY people (both Jewish and other dissidents) were killed in these camps.

Because usually for holocaust deniers it's just the 4 million Auschwitz figure that's disputed. Places like Dachau and Bergen-Belsen etc. put together were responsible for the deaths of 2 million Jews and there's very little disputing that as far as I'm aware.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:05 pm

Objectivist wrote:You're not the authority on what is a credible source and what is not. If you're whining about the source and not arguing the point, you're committing an Ad Hominem fallacy.


Shikanosuke wrote:No, I am not the sole source on what is credible. But we make judgments about what is credible all the time. As we all have here, almost unanimously. Even daj admitted the biasedness of his sources.

Your complaint is that I haven't productively contributed to this thread's 'substance' (by pointing out, like everyone else has, that his sources are faulty) and am whining. Yet you've entered the thread to merely call me out, which amounts to the same. So I'm glad we've had this conversation, again.


Indeed. Just to clarify Shik's point a bit more, we have been debunking dajiangjun's sources regardless of what they are - it is dishonest on the part of dajiangjun and his sources (that is, a straw man) to put up the Soviet estimate of 4 million casualties for Auschwitz and then use that figure in an attempt to argue that any scholarly work done to gauge the actual number of casualties must be fabricated. The Western scholarly consensus points to 1.1 million casualties for Auschwitz (0.9 million of whom were Jews), as accounted for in the 6 million Jewish casualties figure often presented. Because these sources rely on obfuscation of the historical record and on logical fallacy rather than fact, and because they do so out of a political agenda aimed at rehabilitating the Nazi regime, they should be discounted.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby fukarming » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:08 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:
fukarming wrote:Actually, why should we care whether the holocaust aka did Hitler/ Nazi Germany systematically kill Jews just for the sake of killing them happen or not?

I don't think there are any doubts that 1. Nazi Germany persecute Jews and make their life a living hell 2. Many Jews die during WWII because of that.

That makes Nazi responsible of the death of the Jews. It didn't make the Nazi any better even if systematically killing didn't occur.


I don't think it's even a question of systematic extermination but a question of HOW MANY people (both Jewish and other dissidents) were killed in these camps.

Because usually for holocaust deniers it's just the 4 million Auschwitz figure that's disputed. Places like Dachau and Bergen-Belsen etc. put together were responsible for the deaths of 2 million Jews and there's very little disputing that as far as I'm aware.


Well even if you take the lowest agreeable number (1-2 million?), the nazi are still plenty evil. I still don't see why we care on this debate.
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Then they came for foie gras,I didn't speak up because I don't eat foie gras.
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