The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Mestre Will » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:13 pm

James wrote:Many children in Jewish families, today, are raised with standards, expectations, and ideals, that other cultures just don't bother with. Education, importance and relevance of action, and achievement are emphasized each step of the way. I do not agree with it! I personally live by a philosophy of having a lot of fun in life, but as a result I'm not going to get a doctorate (or two).


eerrr i dont agree with this , you can have a fun life and also be a great people (you know of importance like a Ceo of a great corporation or a great player in some sport).Jews have much rules for life and some are so idiotic like the one i hate the most: you (as a Jew) only can marry other Jew , ok some cases somepeople marry nonJew people but it is a minor cases and most of them the jew person "get away" from Judaism.
Also if dicipline and ideals realy made them up why not a good amount of sons of Japaneses are in important places , man i see with my own eyes they are get hard in education and diciplines (not them all of course).

To the Jew in Importante places of USA , i hear about it some times but never know if is true now i see, for me is little strange but not a conpiracy, expecialy when you see they are a super minor group in population.I see many things strange in the world and came to a conclusion: In this days anything is possible (or almost anything).
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby mrbeate » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:55 pm

Mestre Will wrote:eerrr i dont agree with this , you can have a fun life and also be a great people (you know of importance like a Ceo of a great corporation or a great player in some sport).Jews have much rules for life and some are so idiotic like the one i hate the most: you (as a Jew) only can marry other Jew , ok some cases somepeople marry nonJew people but it is a minor cases and most of them the jew person "get away" from Judaism.
Also if dicipline and ideals realy made them up why not a good amount of sons of Japaneses are in important places , man i see with my own eyes they are get hard in education and diciplines (not them all of course).

To the Jew in Importante places of USA , i hear about it some times but never know if is true now i see, for me is little strange but not a conpiracy, expecialy when you see they are a super minor group in population.I see many things strange in the world and came to a conclusion: In this days anything is possible (or almost anything).


You can, but many Jews take out the fun so they can work on education etc.. For example look at South Korea, it is developed country but has a very high suicide rate due to parents overworking their children. Students would stay in school from morning to night, they feel pressure and can't live up to their parents expectations. Even though S.Korea prospering compared to many other countries around, the academic work you have to do, and fulfill is just absurd. Japan also has a high suicide rate with the same reasons above.
Other reasons are that people would work sleepless days, and/or cannot find jobs.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:18 pm

I don't think anything about fun is really relevant.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby James » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:28 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:I don't think anything about fun is really relevant.

It's an overstated branch from my observation that they tend to work harder than me.
You're right. It isn't really relevant; especially outside its original context.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby dajiangjun » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:41 pm

James wrote:Now, some arguments can be discussed about certain elements of the government being predominately Jewish. I acknowledge the possibility that there are areas where it is considered and I've thought about that in the past. But I see absolutely no evidence to indicate that there is some wide-spread conspiracy, or that Israel has its hand lodged up America's ass and is causing our cute little hands to jiggle about playing world affairs to their pleasure. That is simple conspiracy theory. As for your links, they're biased. You generally don't avoid that once content is tailored to produce a certain answer, rather than an answer concluded based on sincere study of all perspectives available. And much of this stuff goes well beyond that—you might as well tune in to Glenn Beck for a sincere explanation of Obama's goals. Or to Al Gore for a critical but well-researched and genuine outline of exactly what global warming is and what we do or do not know about it. And what's worst about this is that you originally came here calling Americans ignorant media-controlled fools, and now you're using extreme-end sources to present a view? I'm also noticing a trend of anti-Semitism in your views here. I'm not even sure how Israel got pulled into this discussion, front and center. It would be easier to swallow if you weren't preaching such extremes.


Certain elements? Take a look at the various elements, and take a look at those media companies and who they own. Virtually every channel on television, every major film producer, every news station, publishing companies, most major newspapers, magazines, Ivy League academia, along with all of these forces in government, and you think that 2%, no even less than 2% because not all Jews concern us, of the population just so happened to totally dominate every face of it? You couple this with America's "special relationship" toward Israel, the factual double-standard in the media biased towards Israel demonstrated in those series of videos, the billions of dollars we send to Israel each year, the countless UN resolutions the US and Israel veto, and you think there is nothing fishy about this? All this while we claim to be a nation that values freedom, peace, and ethnic and religious tolerance, none of which are practiced by Israel, and yet we give them our full support and you expect me to believe it has nothing to do with a complete Jewish domination of our government and media? Fine by me, but in my eyes that is simply foolish. I am really not anti-Semitic, I fail to see how criticism of Israel and pointing out true facts, that most people in power and positions of influencing public opinion are all of one ethnic group, is anti-Semitic in anyway. I guess those Haredi Jew's were right--criticize Israel and you are an anti-Semite.

I smell a vicious double standard at work here. All of the above figures mentioned in 'Germanic' cultures were themselves products of modernity (the German idealists being a prime example). To be sure, there is absolutely no doubt that the Ashkenazim and the Sephardics also benefitted immensely from modernity, but to say that there have been no Jewish intellectuals prior to or contemporary with modernity is downright foolish. What about Maimonides? Hillel ben Samuel? As long as we're rattling off the names of German idealists like Schiller and Nietzsche, why not mention Maimon, Marx and Hess? Or if we're holding up Beethoven, Mozart and Wagner, why not mention Mendelssohn in the same breath?

If one examines the sociology of European Jewry prior to modernity, one will inevitably find that their systems of thought and cultural expression were necessarily self-contained - Jews were discriminated against in all other forms of society but their own on account of religism. Within their own society, the means of gaining respect was education, particularly religious education - without it, their culture and society would have been starved out or assimilated into European Christendom. Legal Jewish emancipation (another aspect of European modernity) eliminated this need for self-containment, and they gained access to the culture in ways which were not possible previously; that we are seeing a larger influence from Jews now is hardly due to nepotism or ethnocentrism in any meaningful sense. In a number of ways, Jewish thinkers have had an immense and positive impact on the culture: the Frankfurt School of critical theory, spearheaded by Theodor Adorno, Max Horkheimer and Herbert Marcuse, has added an entirely new dimension to political discourse and international relations theory (of which, though I was aware of it in undergrad, I am coming into a new appreciation now in grad school).

By contrast, Germanic cultures have historically valued military prowess over education - this was very evident in Late Antiquity and in the Middle Ages, when the most-respected members of society were feudal lords and their retainers, and the majority of cultural production (particularly in the late Middle Ages) was focussed around the ideals of chivalry and courtly love, both of which were considered military virtues. Literacy was rare throughout this period, and was generally relegated to the clergy and to servants of feudal lords who served as administrators. This changed, however, as the merchant class began tugging power away from the landed classes (hence, the Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution).


Aside from this rant having no bearing on the current discussion, you have misinterpreted me as well. I never said there were not any Jewish intellectuals, I said "artist, scientist, physician, or inventor of any note" within Europe because we were discussing their culture vs Germanic culture of accomplishment. The reason I listed people like Schiller and Nietzsche was to emphasize that Germanic culture cannot be said to emphasize accomplishment any less than Jewish culture, which is true. Not only is there no way to gauge which has a culture that emphasizes accomplishment more, there are plenty of examples of Germanic people who prove this is absolutely false. Maimonides is a philosopher and lived his life in Islamic nations, not European and especially not Germanic nations. ben Samuel isn't what I would call a very significant figure. These other Jews you have mentioned propped up in the late 19th century, which I stated is when we begin to find more and more significant Jews. Mendelssohn is also a product of the 19th century, so he falls in that same group, and I guess opinion is opinion but Mendelssohn doesn't hold a candle to either Beethoven, Mozart, or Wagner, neither for skill nor influence.

The rant about Germanic military culture during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages is also irrelevant; even still we find significant German, English, Flemish, and Dutch figures in the areas of theology, philosophy, art, music, literature, science, and technology throughout the middle-ages as well, so really this means nothing.

It is not about Jewish thinkers vs. Germanic thinkers, who is better, or who has a culture more geared toward accomplishment. It is all really irrelevant to my point. However, I would like to see you prove the claim that it is hardly due to ethnocentrism or nepotism. When there is this much domination by such a small minority of people, there is more at work than simple good education, ambition, and a culture of accomplishment. Chinese and Indian people are also very highly educated, geared toward accomplishment, and hard-working and yet I do not see them dominating the near entire spectra of influential positions in America.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby James » Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:02 pm

dajiangjun wrote:Certain elements? Take a look at the various elements, and take a look at those media companies and who they own. Virtually every channel on television, every major film producer, every news station, publishing companies, most major newspapers, magazines, Ivy League academia, along with all of these forces in government, and you think that 2%, no even less than 2% because not all Jews concern us, of the population just so happened to totally dominate every face of it? You couple this with America's "special relationship" toward Israel, the factual double-standard in the media biased towards Israel demonstrated in those series of videos, the billions of dollars we send to Israel each year, the countless UN resolutions the US and Israel veto, and you think there is nothing fishy about this? All this while we claim to be a nation that values freedom, peace, and ethnic and religious tolerance, none of which are practiced by Israel, and yet we give them our full support and you expect me to believe it has nothing to do with a complete Jewish domination of our government and media? Fine by me, but in my eyes that is simply foolish. I am really not anti-Semitic, I fail to see how criticism of Israel and pointing out true facts, that most people in power and positions of influencing public opinion are all of one ethnic group, is anti-Semitic in anyway. I guess those Haredi Jew's were right--criticize Israel and you are an anti-Semite.

Actually, I never would have considered associating you with anti-Semitism based on criticism of Israel alone. It is that all your other complaining here, such as role in American government, is directed at Jewish people. Combine that with the 'information' sources your using, that you've even chosen to use some of those communities as a primary source of information, your position in the Holocaust denial discussion, and the fact you've launched into so many of these subjects, so adamantly, without much cause or even provocation (while avoiding so many others), and a picture starts to come together.

At this point I'm much more curious what you do believe in. What governments are enlightened with this truth that so obfuscates itself from us dumb drone-like media-zombie Americans? I'm starting to sense that the great lie we've all fallen victim to is the Jewish state and Jewish media. By golly, they've utterly taken over our lives!

America does back Israel. Israel is not a model citizen in the world community. Both facts. But if you've got to pick an ally to back in the Middle East, let it be Israel, or let it be nobody. Who would you back as an ally in this political climate? Why?

Why can't you back your position with sites that are actually interested in research to support the truth, rather than research to support a specific view? It is good to know another view, no matter how radical, but you just can't find enlightenment with biased sources. Your 'enlightenment' will be that manipulation (careful focus, featuring, downplay, and exclusion of data) creates of you someone who believes they know the truth when, in fact, they've simply chosen a cause to believe in and, through faith in that case, have taken such a negative stance to other perspectives that they cannot consider them.

And again, that's no argument to say we shouldn't, for example, consider that the Holocaust may have been a fiction! Now, for an educated person familiar with how such a conspiracy tends to play out over history, that's already a hard pill to swallow, but everyone should acknowledge a possibility they haven't disproven for themselves. But that's not where we are in this discussion. The German atrocities (not to mention other lesser-known atrocities, such as the things the Japanese did in China) are so well documented through photo evidence, personal accounts, and extensive research, that you really do have to shut your mind off to 90% of the information out there in order to hear that voice inside and take an adamant stance in opposition.

Question: what do you believe happened? Why?
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby dajiangjun » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:12 am

I'm finished wasting time trying to convince people what is as plain as day to be true. Again and again I've said that its not directed toward ALL Jewish people, and that there are many gentiles who are Zionist allies or puppets who I also have distaste for and blame.

The reason this "political climate" exists is solely because of Israel and our support of Israel in the Middle-East. One of the commissioners of the 9-11 report was found saying that the terrorists who attacked us at 9-11 identify with the Palestinian problem and that when you take steps to support a friend, in this case Israel, there are consequences, ie 9-11. It is captured on video and you can see the same man dodging the question when asked about it again on Cspan--its on youtube somewhere take a look for it. Most of the Middle-Eastern problems today are blamed on the British and their parceling out of the old Ottoman regime; this is partially true, but they gave Israel Palestine at the behest of the Zionists, and many of the problems that exist in the Middle-East post 1950 are directly related to Israel's attempt at neo-Colonialism and oppression that would make the Nazi atrocities seem mild, or at least on par with them. Besides this, we are not obligated to back anybody, be it Israel or any other Middle-Eastern nation. In fact most Muslims would prefer we stayed out of their political affairs.

When Jews who support Israel so dominate every mainstream source of information in the United States, especially television, post-primary academia, newspapers, and magazines, and when you couple this with the fact that the majority of Americans (I would guess as high as 70%) receive nearly all of their information about the world from these sources, it isn't surprising that many are brainwashed. Ever watch the movie Network? Ever see the scene "Turn off your TVs"? That has become not far from reality in America today.

I have never claimed that I was enlightened or more intelligent than anyone, but I have seen through the lies, and I have become so familiar with the normal criteria our media tries to present that I can pick it out nearly every time. I am not alone in this one, and there are people from all across the political spectrum, Left to Right, atheist to theist, Jew and Gentile, rich and poor who can also see. Take a look for a video of Ron Paul and Ben Stein, Ron Paul raises the notion that we must ask ourselves why the terrorists hate us and Ben Stein proceeds to go on an emotional rant calling those who fight us psychos and calling Ron Paul an anti-Semite for dare suggesting that we (he thought Paul meant Israel) are occupiers.

As for the Holocaust, I am in between on the matter. Both sides raise good points in my opinion, both sides deserve consideration, and I am always willing to hear new evidence for both sides; which is more than I can say for most Holocaust believers who entirely shut out all opposing information and call those who present alternatives as low-brow conspiracy theorists, anti-Semites, neo-Nazis, and political extremists. Do I believe lots of Jews died, that Jews were persecuted by the Nazis, that Jews were considered enemies of the state, that Jews were put into work camps, and that Jews were discriminated against? Yes. Do I believe 6,000,000 Jews were systematically murdered by the Nazis via gas execution as ordered by Adolf Hitler? This is the matter I am in between on and cannot make a decision until I learn everything about the event in question. Whether the Holocaust happened 100% like the official story says or not is irrelevant; the Zionist dominated media has created an industry out of the Holocaust, exaggerates aspects of the Holocaust, and uses the cult of the Holocaust to their political advantage. For example the countless Jews who have received money for Holocaust reparations since the end of the war; I wish I could get paid personally because my ancestors suffered 60 years ago. Norman Finkelstein, a Jew, shares this opinion with me as do many secular Jews and religious Jews, such as the Haredi I keep speaking of.

Overall I have talked myself sick of this subject, and its an everyone vs. me matter, so I am done with it. Believe what thou wilt, but take into consideration the points I've raised and investigate the matter more for yourself with an open mind to any possibility and see what you discover.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:01 am

dajiangjun wrote:Aside from this rant having no bearing on the current discussion, you have misinterpreted me as well. I never said there were not any Jewish intellectuals, I said "artist, scientist, physician, or inventor of any note" within Europe because we were discussing their culture vs Germanic culture of accomplishment.


And the Germanic 'culture of accomplishment' (which is certainly in evidence), up until the dawn of the modern era, was by and large a military-dominated culture, and the various artists, theologians and philosophers who were patronised by the military leaders of the time were a part of that culture. Hell, even the physicians and the scientists who foreran the Scientific Revolution were dependent upon the knowledge gained by Western Europe from the Islamic and Byzantine worlds during the Crusades (which were very much a military venture). In focussing solely on 'big names', you overlook the entire structure of the society and what each culture viewed as valuable, which is very material to the point you are attempting to put across. A couple of trees does not a forest make, no matter how tall those trees may be.

And I was merely making the point that if you focus on 'big names', you'll find names equally as big within the Judaic world as within the Gentile European one.

dajiangjun wrote:However, I would like to see you prove the claim that it is hardly due to ethnocentrism or nepotism.


No. That's not how the logic of debate works. You made the claim about nepotism and ethnocentrism being to blame for the high concentration of Jews in certain fields - it is up to you to substantiate that claim with solid evidence (not conspiracy theories and xenophobia from sources which clearly cannot be trusted on account of their blatant hatred), rather than up to me to disprove it.

dajiangjun wrote:Chinese and Indian people are also very highly educated, geared toward accomplishment, and hard-working and yet I do not see them dominating the near entire spectra of influential positions in America.


:lol: Please tell me you didn't just say that. That's the best laugh I've had all day.

Listen, I'm currently at the University of Pittsburgh, one of the top public research universities in the country, and let me tell you, South and East Asian students are indeed highly, even disproportionately represented in our legal and medical schools. It was the same way for the engineering department at the University of Wisconsin, where my dad taught for 18 years. South and East Asian students have also made astoundingly significant headways into public administration and business at American institutions of higher learning (and more power to them, I say), so don't give me this crap about Jews having a stranglehold on academia.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby dajiangjun » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:20 am

1. Yes, they were a mainly military culture, as was most Europe, and much of the world at that time.

2. The solid evidence is the complete domination, the extreme numerical over-representation of Jews in all important influential sectors. When one ethnic group with such a small fragment of the population has a near complete control of the media and important sectors in government, it cannot be thrown away as mere chance or through hard work. If not nepotism and ethnocentrism, please explain how? Even if they earned all of these positions rightfully, it is still unfair and not right that one extreme minority should have near complete control. It would be akin to 5,000,000 white guys going to China, owning every media outlet, every television channel, every newspaper and magazine, have complete domination of their economy and banking systems, own most of the publishing companies, hold the top spots in Chinese education systems, and have lobbies and organizations just to keep China supporting some white country who is known to have attacked China in the past (USS Liberty incident) and who constantly violates human rights and is a brutal oppressive regime destroying and another people (the Palestinians) based on their ethnicity or religion.

3. Yes, but are these South and East Asians in complete control of the media, the treasury department, the federal reserve, and dominating every influential sector in the country? I never said that Asians are not successful, they have a higher work ethic and culture for accomplishment than white America, but white America hasn't always been so against hard work and accomplishment. These trends are recent. Look at the information underground link that shows clearly the main occupants of all the highest positions in Ivy League academia, if you consider the source biased check out wikipedia.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Mestre Will » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:16 am

To say the truth is very strange it case.I think conspiracy is very exagerated but a "group" in power is a posible idea.Also say they earny it rightfully is worse than conspiracy (not all they , maybe not all they , it not possible them all, if 5 or 6 or 7 ok but hey is much more).

Anyway just to know , what the "almost monopoly" of important sectors have in relevance with The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial ?
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