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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:39 pm
by James
dajiangjun wrote:Any my point is that we do not know what deep and emotional bigotry any person harbors unless he displays it outright. Anyone could harbor any sort of bigotry and produce a scholarly work supporting his or her ideas. Of course if I went onto a website with swastikas covering the page and a skin-head Joe-schmo stating that the Nazis explored space and that they never harmed anyone, and that Jews deserved what fate they received, etc. it would obviously be untrustworthy. My point is that many of the sources of the information I presented are not from bigoted sources, only that they appear on websites hosted by people who may or may-not be bigoted.

Again, I don't know how you even begin to qualify a position like this. Bigotry really is something that runs thick in a person's interests and motives. Even if a person does have a few slight bigoted views here and there on a subject, but keeps it entirely removed from their presentation, they're not going to be anywhere near as bigoted as someone who includes it or reveals it (intentionally or not). Additionally, the source which does not offer signs of bigotry is highly unlikely to be bigoted from a statistical perspective, while the source that does, well, is. And what kind of bigotry are we talking about here anyway, in regard to traditional historic sources on the Holocaust? Bigotry against, what, white supremacy? Nazis? Genocide? All that aside, a general-research historian reports on travesties and cruelties regularly and it is a hurdle they are accustomed to.

It is okay to research against the traditional view, or to review the traditional view, as that will nearly always lend itself to a much greater understanding, even if it doesn't always counter the traditional view (at least when we're talking about a traditional view held by subject professionals). But when you lend a weight many times stronger to the radical alternative view and weigh their 'evidence' more strongly in accord—when you are more eager to dismiss the flaws in their research or accept their points than you are alternative views—you leave yourself with an even more messed up or wrong view than you would have had you taken the consensus among professionals at face value.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:11 am
by dajiangjun
I thought I would add one thing I found by chance while browsing the internet--some of the information seems a bit jumbled, parts seem to be conspiracy-theory like, not all of it reflects my opinion, but nonetheless a lot can be learned from this article. I recommend reading it all, especially if you are an American-

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/08/24 ... -comments/

With that I bid you all adieu.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:32 pm
by Shikanosuke
James and Aggs covered most of everything I'd respond to anyone who says bigoted sources are fine and are being unfairly scrutinized. I thought this was a fairly common understanding though. Also I think it is disingenuous to attempt to validate the use of biased sources by attempting to throw a shroud of 'everyones info might be bigoted' over the general consensus. That seems to be nothing more than a rationalization of using bigoted sources.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:43 pm
by James
dajiangjun wrote:... especially if you are an American-

Give it a rest. Do you even realize how hilarious it is to quote conspiracy theorist articles and, in the same breath, present them to an audience you claim to be bound to media lies?

You know... what is your opinion of the Jewish folk?

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:53 pm
by agga
agga wrote:for what it's worth, i'm perfectly willing to believe (given his posts elsewhere) that dajiangjun is just a solid anti-establishment type, and that he's skeptical of popular notions in general, including mass acceptance of the holocaust.


i had a look at that impossible-to-read "article" dajiangjun linked to, and i'd like to rescind this earlier statement.

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:31 pm
by CaTigeReptile
Out of curiosity, are there any non-Turkish-supported Armenian Genocide skeptics? Do not enough people know about it, maybe?

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:07 pm
by Tigger of Kai
similar threads from days gone by:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18564&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9152&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

second one's worth a look if only for my photo of Zundel

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:39 pm
by WeiWenDi
Tigger, IMHO you make a very good point in the thread posted above which bears repeating here, about anti-Semitism being qualitatively different from other forms of discrimination - though perhaps that was more true when you first made the case than it is now (xenophobic conspiracy theories being what they are, they have a tendency to morph and adapt with the times). We've seen some of this already, on this thread no less - teh j00z are both the corporate masters who control our media and brainwash our children, and they're the evil masterminds behind the crimes of Stalin (which simply cannot be laid at the feet of the Jews in the caricatured way done here).

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:58 pm
by agga
WeiWenDi wrote:teh j00z are both the corporate masters who control our media and brainwash our children, and they're the evil masterminds behind the crimes of Stalin (which simply cannot be laid at the feet of the Jews in the caricatured way done here).


i was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, and let the whole thing sneak up on me; this is where he was coming from with his earlier stuff about "the mainstream is brainwashed", not trusting the media, etc. i first thought this business was parallel with his other statements (e.g. skepticism of mainstream opinion), but then the whole 'bigotry is deep and fundamental' aspect became more and more relevant, and now i see that he had an idea as to what was at the root of all the things he didn't trust, and was just waiting to introduce it...

Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:34 pm
by dajiangjun
James wrote:
dajiangjun wrote:... especially if you are an American-

Give it a rest. Do you even realize how hilarious it is to quote conspiracy theorist articles and, in the same breath, present them to an audience you claim to be bound to media lies?

You know... what is your opinion of the Jewish folk?


You can cross reference nearly all of the information in that article, collection of data is probably a better term, on wikipedia; it is not a conspiracy if it is true. Don't believe me? Check for yourself, especially cross reference the people listed as owners of Media corporations, political institutions, heads of banks, etc. The only conspiracy-theory parts I could find is references to the Rothschilds, the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, linking Mossad with 9/11, and the authors personal opinions of which I am too ignorant to give an opinion of. If I found some large diamonds in some dog-poo, should I dismiss the diamonds as dog-poo as well or investigate and benefit from the discovery that they are indeed diamonds? In other words, the conspiracy stuff should not detract from the authentic information within the link. I feel I should add that I do not believe in a New World order or some vast conspiracy, just a domination of politics, economy, and media by an elite group, most of whom are Jewish.

My opinion of Jewish folk is the same as any other people; I respect any individual or group regardless of their race, gender, creed, physical appearance, etc. My opinion of political Zionism is that it is a destructive force in the world, and it just so happens that many of the people in power who support political Zionism are Jewish, but there are non-Jews who also support Zionism who I find to be equally as destructive and worthy of my distaste. They are numerous Jews, such as many Haredi Jews, who are against Zionism and Israel, and I respect them for that.

Here is an example you all should watch, these Jews believe many of the same things I do- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeB3QhX2RI

I also have a great admiration for Baruch Spinoza, Jewish scientists, authors like Kafka, Jewish mystics, Kabbalists, Bob Dylan, Larry David, and have had many Jewish friends. If I were a racist anti-Semite I would tell you...why would I fear hiding it if it were true?

The following is from a series of post from the information underground, this one specifically about government institutions, but it can also be applied to the media and other influential sectors--

"Jews are approximately 2% of the United States population.* The probability that the heads of this many private and governmental organizations would be Jews is infinitesimally small. This extreme numerical over-representation of Jews cannot be explained away as a coincidence or as the result of mere random chance. You must ask yourself how such an incredibly small and extremely unrepresentative minority ethnic group that only represents 2% of the American population could control all of these important and influential private and U.S. Government institutions."

One must ask oneself how this is possible.