The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby dajiangjun » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:04 pm

agga wrote:i think there is plenty of evidence that jews and others died in the millions in concentration camps during the war. you can start at the fact that before the war the numbers of jews in europe, esp. germany and poland, were hundreds of thousands (into the millions) more than after. next, note that there are millions of witnesses to the arrest and deportation of these same people to camps in germany and poland (and other locations). finally, there is eyewitness testimony on the part of prisoners, soldiers, and bureaucrats, and orders given by german officials, that explicitly describe mass executions at those camps.


You forget that there were large numbers of Jewish immigrations outside of Germany and Europe during the course of the war, and the fact that eye witness accounts do not definitively prove that the Holocaust occurred. Many also claimed to have been eye witnesses to seeing Jews turned into bars of soap and lampshades, but these have been debunked. There is also the fact that eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of evidence and that there are many inconsistencies in witness testimony for the Holocaust. Try reading this article-

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndvalue.html
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby dajiangjun » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:09 pm

Finally allow me to say that I am not a neo-Nazi, I disagree with many of the positions of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime, I do not hate Jews, and my quest is not one fueled by hate, but for truth. When contradictory evidence is put forth, I think it would be unwise to not consider it. Also, I felt as though I should share this interesting excerpt from a letter by Dr. Roger Dommergue Polacco de Menasce, a French Jew, to Steven Spielburg-

Dear M.Spielberg,

I wish your honesty to be equal to your very great talent. I saw you on T.V in France. You declared that you would pour out Shoa propaganda in German schools. You mentioned that witnesses would convince for good, as to the reality of the Shoa( 6-million-gas-chambers). I feel it my duty as a Jew and after 20 years study of the historical problem of the holocaust, to call your attention to the facts.

Facts are very stubborn and as no one can gainsay them, our congeners have been compelled to make disgusting politicians enact stalino-orwellian laws which forbid to mention anything concerning the dogma of the"six-million-gas-chambers", definitively reduced to perpetual worship of this alchemy.

In case of no respect of silence and worship of the myth, you suffer the penalty of fines or prison or both. Professor Faurisson who has been studying the subject for 20 years, has been practically massacred. This is utterly ridiculous but give the Police and the Justice of all countries to Mr Lévy, he will not be ridiculous any more: here is the XXth century! These laws are, accordingly, the absolute proof of the fake before we study its arithmetical and technical ineptitude. No Sir, you will not find ONE witness who saw 6 millions Jews slaughtered. You will not find ONE witness of Zyclon- B- gas chambers to exterminate 1000 or 2000 people at a time, close to the crematoria. See my "Shoa Sherlockholmised" herewith: it is the summary of 20 years study on the subject.

The "6-million-gas-chambers myth "is an arithmetic and technical nonsense. As a matter of fact the howling, snivelling, Shoa business, 50 years after the war, is disgusting, debasing, : it is a disgraceful shame .

No people in History has ever been wailing about its losses 50 years after a war, even its true and real losses. Even if the 6-million-gas-chambers were true, it would be a dishonour to make such din and pump up so much money everywhere: who were the usurers of the Weimar Republic? You know it as well as I do. It is all the more so as we know that 6.000.000 is gross exaggeration and that the zyclon B gas chambers are a technical impossibility. (See Degesh Trial in 1949). In fact 150,000 or 200,000 Jews died in the German camps of typhus or starvation. Many others died but as fighters against Germany to which we, the Jews, had declared war in 1933! ( Hitler was allergic to the hegemony of gold and of the dollar: so he could give work to six million unemployed, before the functioning of German armament factories!).

Do you know the book published at this period and written by our congener Kaufmann: GERMANY MUST PERISH? We know that 80,000,000 Goyim were slaughtered in the USSR, in a political regime which was entirely Jewish, from Marx and Warburg, to Kaganovitch, Frenkel, Yagoda, the executioners. We know that after 1945 Americans and Russians killed and raped German communities all over Europe from Lithuania to Albania. We know that 1,500,000 German war prisoners were starved to death after the war (a famous book was published a few years ago, but is ignored to day). You will find here included in French the text of a rabbi: "A rabbi pleads guilty": unfortunately I possess neither the German original nor an English translation. You should have it translated.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:48 am

dajiangjun wrote:Half the links you posted did not work


The problem is on your end, then. All of the links were from the The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

dajiangjun wrote:There are a wide variety of highly-educated people, including Jewish historians, who suspect that parts of the Holocaust are exaggeration and question the death toll and the manner of death.


Actual scholarly debates are one thing, since they are willing to put stake in the entire body of evidence and use that as the starting basis for their inquiries. The people you have kept referring to - Zündel and his sympathisers, Jeff Rense and now the Belgian neo-Nazi group VHO - are not a part of this debate. They have one interest and one interest only, and it is not an interest in the truth but an interest in revising history in such a way as lends legitimacy to their extremist political ideology.

As to the initial Soviet reporting methods from Auschwitz, I can very easily believe that they were revised as more information was gathered in the aftermath. The same thing happens all the time in incidences of natural disaster (like the flooding in Pakistan most recently) where early casualty estimates are statistically derived from both on-the-ground reporting and hearsay. However, the more sampling data you have, the more accurate the estimate becomes - that's how statistics works - it doesn't mean that the original figures were fabricated.

dajiangjun wrote:Is it hateful to consider both sides? Does a search for truth necessarily have to be hateful?

...

I am not a neo-Nazi, I disagree with many of the positions of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime, I do not hate Jews, and my quest is not one fueled by hate, but for truth.


There is no reason to consider Zündel or the VHO reliable sources for anything in such a search for truth, certainly when compared to the vast majority of scholars and experts who can point to a vast body of evidence for proof that the Holocaust actually happened. You keep telling us you're not a neo-Nazi, but you continue to put Nazis and neo-Nazis up on pedestals as having privileged access to what you deem to be 'the truth'. That routine's getting pretty stale.

And I can't find any sourcing outside hate groups for that letter from de Menasce, nor any grounding for any of the claims he makes. Not to mention the hate-filled rhetoric he employs (i.e. at all of these 'howling, snivelling', 'disgusting, debasing' Jews who have the effrontery to remember their own past), the blatant typographical errors, factual errors, and sheer idiocy of some of the claims he makes (Marx was 30 years dead before the Soviet Union was a twinkle in Lenin's eye, for one).
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby dajiangjun » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:46 am

WeiWenDi wrote:Actual scholarly debates are one thing, since they are willing to put stake in the entire body of evidence and use that as the starting basis for their inquiries. The people you have kept referring to - Zündel and his sympathisers, Jeff Rense and now the Belgian neo-Nazi group VHO - are not a part of this debate. They have one interest and one interest only, and it is not an interest in the truth but an interest in revising history in such a way as lends legitimacy to their extremist political ideology.


So basically it boils down to your sources are legitimate and my sources are not, and no matter what information I post, even if it has source citations and original material that has nothing to do with the websites they are found on, ie Jeff Rense personally having nothing to do with the Red Cross data and VHO gathering their information from outside sources, it will be wrong. Zundel and his sympathizers are not motivated by hate but rather a search for truth, I am not sure where you plucked that idea from aside from the idea that anyone who opposes the mainstream story of the Holocaust is fueled by hatred, a pretty common accusation. It is fairly odd that a fully evident truth, the Holocaust, would need to be protected by laws, stigma for questioning the event, and have organized groups (such as the Anti-Defamation League, the Jewish Internet Defense Force etc) to enforce the historical dogma surrounding the event. Did you even read the information or did you simply dismiss it as neo-Nazi rhetoric? Even, for the sake of the debate, if the sources were from people fueled by their political ideology, does this make it impossible for them to be correct about anything? You also fail to take into consideration that there may be people fueled by their own political ideology for arguing in favor of the official story.

WeiWenDi wrote:As to the initial Soviet reporting methods from Auschwitz, I can very easily believe that they were revised as more information was gathered in the aftermath. The same thing happens all the time in incidences of natural disaster (like the flooding in Pakistan most recently) where early casualty estimates are statistically derived from both on-the-ground reporting and hearsay. However, the more sampling data you have, the more accurate the estimate becomes - that's how statistics works - it doesn't mean that the original figures were fabricated.


You asked for proof that the numbers were revised, and I provided. There is a pretty big difference between 4 million and 500,000. Regardless if it were fabrication or the gathering of further information, it just further illustrates my point that it is possible for there to be new evidence or new opinion in regards to the Holocaust or any historical event, and that no historical event, no matter how recent, is unable to be questioned nor should ever have consequences for questioning.

There is no reason to consider Zündel or the VHO reliable sources for anything in such a search for truth, certainly when compared to the vast majority of scholars and experts who can point to a vast body of evidence for proof that the Holocaust actually happened. You keep telling us you're not a neo-Nazi, but you continue to put Nazis and neo-Nazis up on pedestals as having privileged access to what you deem to be 'the truth'. That routine's getting pretty stale.

And I can't find any sourcing outside hate groups for that letter from de Menasce, nor any grounding for any of the claims he makes. Not to mention the hate-filled rhetoric he employs (i.e. at all of these 'howling, snivelling', 'disgusting, debasing' Jews who have the effrontery to remember their own past), the blatant typographical errors, factual errors, and sheer idiocy of some of the claims he makes (Marx was 30 years dead before the Soviet Union was a twinkle in Lenin's eye, for one).


What I can gather from this is that, firstly, you are the authoritative source on what is reliable and what is not, and for which information is valid and which is not. I can also gather that, if a vast majority of scholars believe something is true, then it must of course be true. And that, I, for offering an alternative view of history, must of course mirror the affiliation of my sources and am a foaming-at-the-mouth neo-Nazi :lol: By the way, I never once stated that I believe 100% of every piece of counter-evidence I posted to be the truth, but merely that they should not be dismissed.

de Menasce's grounding for the claims he makes probably derives form his decades of research into the subject, and I doubt he is part of a hate-group. He is a Jew, and I don't find anything hate-filled in his words, merely criticism. If he finds it disgusting and debasing to make so much din and pump around the event, as he puts it, then he is entitled to that view. His point with Marx is that Marxism had a Jewish founder, many of the original communist revolutionaries in various countries were Jewish, and that the Soviet Union had a major Jewish influence as well, all of which is true.

In conclusion there is no reason to continue this debate because nothing I can say will persuade you, or anyone here for that matter, to take into consideration the alternative information. And that is fine, it is a belief of mine that people should be free to believe what they will. However, it also seems that if I continue to defend the position of the possibility of a deviation from the dogmatic version of the Holocaust, that I will be labeled a neo-Nazi as the idea has already been conceived.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby James » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:57 am

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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:46 am

dajiangjun wrote:So basically it boils down to your sources are legitimate and my sources are not, and no matter what information I post, even if it has source citations and original material that has nothing to do with the websites they are found on, ie Jeff Rense personally having nothing to do with the Red Cross data and VHO gathering their information from outside sources, it will be wrong. Zundel and his sympathizers are not motivated by hate but rather a search for truth, I am not sure where you plucked that idea from aside from the idea that anyone who opposes the mainstream story of the Holocaust is fueled by hatred, a pretty common accusation.


I don't see how you can possibly claim that Zündel is not motivated by hate. His published works (like 'The Hitler We Loved and Why' and 'Did Six Million Really Die?') are rife with anti-Semitic cant, and he has been known to make threats against Holocaust survivors (particularly the incident in 1987 at the Finta trial) and against all Jews worldwide (as in 1997, when he said they 'have a Holocaust coming'). Sorry, but in this case the shoe fits perfectly - it's particularly laughable in light of his attitude that 'genocide didn't happen, but even if it didn't happen it should have'.

Rense is a bit more slippery, but he routinely and often enthusiastically hosts hate-mongers on his show, and has a close working relationship with fellow anti-Semitic radio host Ted Pike.

dajiangjun wrote:You asked for proof that the numbers were revised, and I provided. There is a pretty big difference between 4 million and 500,000.


500,000 was not the final estimate on Auschwitz's casualties, as well you should know. The official estimate which has been used throughout the non-communist West since the 1960's at least has been 1,100,000 (of whom ~1,000,000 were Jewish), and this has been the representative figure in all relevant studies since the end of the war (included in the 6,000,000 Jewish dead).

dajiangjun wrote:I can also gather that, if a vast majority of scholars believe something is true, then it must of course be true.


No; the vast majority of scholars believing something does not make it true - the vast majority of the evidence pointing to a scholarly consensus, however, makes it infinitely more likely to be true.

dajiangjun wrote:And that, I, for offering an alternative view of history, must of course mirror the affiliation of my sources and am a foaming-at-the-mouth neo-Nazi By the way, I never once stated that I believe 100% of every piece of counter-evidence I posted to be the truth, but merely that they should not be dismissed.


Yet you spew it all forth here unchallenged and without any kind of critical analysis and merely the flimsiest attempts to distance yourself from whatever about it you think might look bad; you privilege it above the historical scholarship you have routinely disdained in favour of blatantly political hate-motivated interests. Not reading too much into that is fairly difficult to do, particularly when this copypasta trolling tactic is so oft repeated.

dajiangjun wrote:de Menasce's grounding for the claims he makes probably derives form his decades of research into the subject, and I doubt he is part of a hate-group.


Like I said, I can't find any independent verification that he has done 'decades of research', and his name is mentioned almost solely by hate groups trying to advance their own cause by using this single letter which you have reproduced here almost in full. If you can source it, that would be one thing, but you didn't take the opportunity to do so either here or before.

dajiangjun wrote:His point with Marx is that Marxism had a Jewish founder, many of the original communist revolutionaries in various countries were Jewish, and that the Soviet Union had a major Jewish influence as well, all of which is true.


And yet a.) none of the Marxists who either came up with the theory or who were active in the early Soviet Union were practising Jews; and b.) the greatest atrocities of the Soviet Union were carried out under the orders not of Jews, but of a Georgian - attributing all of the evils of the Soviet Union to Jews is thus completely unfair, and speaks to bigotry rather than legitimate criticism. If you can't see how that is the case, then there obviously isn't any point in continuing this discussion.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Mestre Will » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:16 am

Ow ow ow ow Stop .... i lost myself in here .... what exactly you guys are debate about Holocaust?
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:56 pm

Mestre Will wrote:Ow ow ow ow Stop .... i lost myself in here .... what exactly you guys are debate about Holocaust?


It is kind of in the title of the thread. But to catch you up it appears that dajiangjun is attempting to dissociate his so called 'quest for truth' with being a neo-Nazi, while providing and giving credence to dubious sources linked with hate-groups. I assume this because he believes the 'dogma' around the Holocaust is some conspiracy motivated by political sentiment. I figure his response to my summary will be that we're just too indoctrinated into believing the mainstream view of history, and we're too blind to consider that bigots might be able to provide reliable data.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Mestre Will » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:38 pm

He are try to say Holocaust do not happen or try to find why it happen?
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby agga » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:45 pm

for what it's worth, i'm perfectly willing to believe (given his posts elsewhere) that dajiangjun is just a solid anti-establishment type, and that he's skeptical of popular notions in general, including mass acceptance of the holocaust. since most people know very little, or nothing, about the history of and context surrounding the holocaust, they accept its occurrence on a sort of faith, giving it the status of modern myth, with evil villains (nazis), saintly martyrs, etc. etc. recognizing something like this as a type of myth can lead one to question whether it has any basis in truth at all, and i think that this is where dajiangjun is coming from. it may also be where many of his sources are coming from.

so, it is at least a good point to make that popular knowledge of the holocaust (and of other historical events) is mainly taken on faith, and reinforced by popular media depictions (movies, etc.) which don't stray from the mainstream interpretation of events.

however, Crazedmongoose and WWD have also made important points:

Crazedmongoose wrote:Conspiracies generally cannot be covered up.


WeiWenDi wrote:the vast majority of scholars believing something does not make it true - the vast majority of the evidence pointing to a scholarly consensus, however, makes it infinitely more likely to be true.


there are thousands of scholars, modern historians, that have studied the particulars of WW2 in europe, movement of populations, massacres and battles, collapse of economies, political transformations, etc. etc. the fact that a handful of these come to extremely contrary positions most likely indicates that they are misinterpreting the historical record: that they are mistaken.

that said, i am not a historian, i am not interested in studying in any depth the historiography of the holocaust, and yet i am comfortable, on the basis of what i have read and seen, accepting the apparent consensus that there was an attempt at genocide of the jews, led by nazi germany, that resulted in the deaths of millions. this doesn't look like a useful place to challenge the mainstream.
Last edited by agga on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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