Spring & Autumn - Warring States

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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:52 am

Haha sorry I normally take compliments pretty well but I've literally been too embarassed to answer till now. There are many on this site who I'd rank as having a much better understanding of history than me. The only thing I think I do okay at is reading between the lines and analysis. I'm certainly not anywhere above average in terms of knowledge.


As for the "did the states want unification", it's difficult to say. I get the feeling that all throughout Chinese history, there's a kind of stigma against saying straight out you want to be Emperor (or in case of pre-Imperial China, the son of heaven). People who want great power such as Cao Cao and Sun Quan all talk in very general terms. It's always "let our names echo through history" or "establish a hegemon such as king blah blah of blah blah" or even Cao Cao's "let me be king Wen of Zhou".

So I'm sorry but I honestly can't rightly judge whether aspiring dukes and princes wanted to be Emperor/son of heaven (which requires unification) or just wanted to be hegemon.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Tao Qian » Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:07 pm

I LOVE THIS FORUM

I really like the Warring States period as is really the beginning of everything in China. I´d read a book about it comparing the unification of China with the XVI-XVIII centuries in Europe (the militar revolution). One thing that the book was saying and I didn´t know is that the unification of China took only a few years (for this age), so it was unexpected. There was a part of luck on it, but Qin played hardest with the same rules breaking the pacts and making better allegiances than the others.

Another point: the reforms of the chinese states, says this author, were self-strenghtened when the European were to weak the kingdom. When the chinese made census improving taxing ande recruiting of troops, the European were selling taxes and using mercenary troops (one curiose thing of the book is that the reforms of the modern Prussia were based in the chinese).

A really interesting age. Someone knows how to find information about the Mohist? I always wanted to know more about them but after read the manga Bokko I really have curiosity.

Thanks,
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby laojim » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:20 am

Tao Qian wrote:I...
A really interesting age. Someone knows how to find information about the Mohist? I always wanted to know more about them but after read the manga Bokko I really have curiosity.

Thanks,
Ricardo


A lot of people would but there just isn't anything left to read as Mohism was deliberately and successfully repressed by those who would not benefit from the teachings that denied divine right and so on. A summary is found at http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/ ... ohism.html, although there are plenty of others. Because it was suppressed it was not endlessly elaborated like the writings of some of the other philosophers of the age.

The doctrines of Mohism are to be found in the work Mo-tzu, named after the founder of the Moist tradition Mo Ti (c. 470-390 BCE). Although attributed to Mo Ti, the Mo-tzu was probably composed over a number of generations by Mo Ti's disciples. The Mo-tzu originally consisted of 71 chapters, but 16 of these have been lost.
It is in the Essays section of the Mo-tzu we that we find the key principles of Moism.

1. Universal love. In contrast to the Confucianists, who taught that devotion was particularly due to one's family, Moism prescribed equal love for all people.
2. Opposition to offensive war. Mo Ti opposed all forms of aggressive action, particularly in the form of large states attacking smaller ones. He did, however, accept that it was legitimate to use force to defend those who are being attacked.
3. Opposition to music. Mo Ti regarded music as a source of extravagance, associating it with dance, flamboyance and a waste of public resources which could be used to feed, shelter and protect people.
4. Opposition to elaborate funerals. Funerals were excessively expensive and the time of mourning excessively lengthy.
5. Divine retribution. Mo Ti believed that heaven is a personal force which knows of the misdeeds that people perform and punishes people for them. Such a belief serves to encourage people to conduct themselves morally.
6. Government. Unlike Confucius, Mo-tzu did not accept the tradition that emperors derive their mandate from heaven; instead the position of the emperor should be based solely on merit. While the emperor should be obeyed, people have the right to criticise the emperor if his actions are not in accord with the will of heaven.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby laojim » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:41 am

BTW Aside from names, as such, Mohism or Mo Xue, meaning the Mo School of thought, would be devoted to, in modern usage, Mo Zi, which is not a name, but a title. In this usage Zi is a suffix which indicates, in this case, that it is a person with a particular quality, so Mo Zi would mean something like "The ink guy," as Loa Zi would just mean "The Old Guy" and so on. This is not a rigorous translation, but it seems to be the spirit of the thing.

You might look at http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php. You should be warned, however, that you cannot type in "mo" and get anything. You have to type in "mo4" to indicate that it is a word with a falling tone. It is easier to look up someone in Wiki and cut and paste the given Chinese into the dictionary, which works, incidentally, even if you don't have Chinese character loaded on you system. You are again warned that you will be rewarded for your efforts, if you are successful so far, with a confusing set of phrases and meanings so good luck. Chinese is a fascinating language.

As for Mo Zi, I note that one of the meanings for Mo4 is a punishment in which one's forehead would be carved with characters and inked producing a sort of tattoo. I don't know what is known a out his history, but perhaps he was given the name for some such treatment.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Tao Qian » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:59 am

Thank you very much Laojim, i will search in the page that you gave me. I can see chinese characters, but anyway the problem is that my Chinese is really bad, my Japanese is better that sometimes helps but sometimes not. Maybe the name of Mo Zi meaning the same as a punishment is just a coincidence, the Chinese has a lot of homonymus, so many times the words are the same, the good point is that they can do a lot of jokes.

Thanks for the information.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:42 pm

Mozi had a few good ideas, a few ideal but impractical ones, and a few really awful, uninspired ones.

I've read the Burton Watson translation of his writings, Xun Tzu's and Han Fei Tzu's.

In my opinion, Mohism as a whole is a rather poor philosophy in comparison to the beliefs of the aforementioned other two as well as Confucius. Han Fei Tzu's philosophy was the most Macchiavellian. In fact you could probably draw several parallels between his doctrine and the one that The Prince advocates. Xun Tzu's and Confucius' seemed to be the most pragmatic. Thus it's not really a surprise to me that Confucian philosophy ultimately triumphed while Mozi's floundered.

I don't have the book with me unfortunately, but I can remember a few fallacies from Mozi's writings. For instance, he claims Offensive warfare is bad, but there is a distinction between "punishing" an enemy and "attacking" them. Mozi uses this distinction to justify a sage king's assault on the Miao people. His repeated veneration of the sage kings thus takes on a certain degree of hypocrisy. Throughout his work he then repeatedly brings up the sage kings to justify many of his tenets, including the belief in ghosts. His ideas on critiquing government actually somewhat contradict his earlier points that people should identify with their superiors and avoid questioning them. Mozi's best idea was limiting expedentiture, but he made the mistake of broadly condemning music, which few people at the time could really take seriously. It's human nature to enjoy music, and it's actually rather odd for somebody to not enjoy any of it. His concern was on the cost of music. While he had good intentions, it was a mistake for him to criticize music as a whole. It wasn't really as unproductive as he seemed to indicate.

Mozi's best ideas concerned limiting expedentiture and employing worthy officials.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:35 pm

I have to say alot of the records are incomplete millatary wise and civil wise( Thanks Ying Zheng :evil: )
yet for some reason the philosophical doctrines survived.
Qs;
more info on xiang yu,Sima Rangju,please, i seek the knowledge :) ....
Anyone anyalsis of King wen and King Wu of Zhou?
Duke Ai of Lu Confucius' lord?
And, The states of Ji And Yue, i know nothing of this one so info would help.
EDIT...
A Late one yes but im saying that because the ROTK 11 when you pick you dynasty name , there is a Ji, but no it is Jin a read that lately in A history CHINA, by John Keay, large kingdom that disintegrated into Wei, Zhao and Qi, etc..
Last edited by Lord Yang Jiahua on Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:58 am

I have to say alot of the records are incomplete millatary wise and civil wise( Thanks Ying Zheng :evil: )


Exactly how I feel. Damn you First Emperor!

As I said in the other thread, I might be willing to type up some info on some Han and Qin figures from Burton Watson's translation of Shi JI, including Xiang Yu.

Yue was a kingdom in the South. IIRC its most famous king was Goujian who was able to inflict several reversals on the Kingdom of Wu.

I'm not sure about Ji. Did you mean Jin maybe?
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Tao Qian » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:00 pm

Hello,

Someone knows the name of the territory than Zhao conquered in the 330 b. C. in the East?

Thanks
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:28 am

From the Wikipedia article on King Wuling of Zhao (ruled 325-299 BC)

"Wuling's reforms greatly improved the fighting capability of the Zhao military. The same year the Zhao attacked the barbarian country of Zhongshan (Simplified and Traditional Chinese: 中山) and took several cities. In 306 BCE the Zhao military launched expeditions into barbarian territory in the north. The northern expedition was highly successful: the Kings of the Liufan and Linhu surrendered and their territory became administered by a governor of Dai (Simplified and Traditional Chinese: 代). In the next year, parts of Zhongshan were annexed[1]. In 304 BCE the upper reaches of the Yellow River were invaded and taken from the barbarian tribes like the Hezhongsi (Simplified and Traditional Chinese: 河宗氏) and the You (Simplified and Traditional Chinese: 休). In the conquered areas King Wuling created two prefectures in 302 BCE - Yunzhong (Simplified Chinese: 云中) and Jiuyuan (Simplified and Traditional Chinese: 九原). In a little over five years Zhao Wuling had expanded his country to the border with the Yan, the upper reaches of the Yellow River and into the north, and had forced two tribal leaders - the Liufan and Linhu (林胡) kings - to surrender. King Wuling took control of their armies and added them to his military, creating extra divisions made up entirely of hardy Mongolian warriors."

So...Zhongshan? It's about as close to your query as I could find.
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