Spring & Autumn - Warring States

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Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:18 am

Do we have a thread discussing this? It's a pretty fascinating period of time. If it were closer to modern times I think it could have easily supplanted Three Kingdoms in cultural significance. But the historical records on it weren't detailed enough to create works like SGYY.

Still, the likes of Ying Zheng, Lu Buwei, Shang Yang, Jing Ke, Han Feizi, Sun Tzu, Sun Bin, Bai Qi, Confucius, Mencius, Mozi, Xi Shi, Fan Li, King Goujian of Yue etc. cannot be underestimated in their impact in China and all of Asia. (And in fact, Sun Tzu's Art of War is still recommended reading in many military and business academies around the world, and the importance of Confucius and Mencius obviously cannot be neglected.)
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:18 am

BOY IS THIS THREAD GOING OFF!

Okay fine, I might as well post some things about it soon.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:43 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:Do we have a thread discussing this? It's a pretty fascinating period of time. If it were closer to modern times I think it could have easily supplanted Three Kingdoms in cultural significance. But the historical records on it weren't detailed enough to create works like SGYY.

Still, the likes of Ying Zheng, Lu Buwei, Shang Yang, Jing Ke, Han Feizi, Sun Tzu, Sun Bin, Bai Qi, Confucius, Mencius, Mozi, Xi Shi, Fan Li, King Goujian of Yue etc. cannot be underestimated in their impact in China and all of Asia. (And in fact, Sun Tzu's Art of War is still recommended reading in many military and business academies around the world, and the importance of Confucius and Mencius obviously cannot be neglected.)

ahh, the conqueror himself Xiang Ji or Yu.. i believe its Ji, even though he's referred to as Yu
the start of the Han Dynasty, Liu Bang, Zhang Liang and Han Xin.. good times :P
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:44 am

Yeah, no....you're off by about two decades. :D

It's Xiang Yu by the way, and the warrior king was a figure during the Chu-Han contention, which followed the Qin Dynasty.

The era of Spring & Autumn and Warring States was before the Qin Dynasty.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:54 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:Yeah, no....you're off by about two decades. :D

It's Xiang Yu by the way, and the warrior king was a figure during the Chu-Han contention, which followed the Qin Dynasty.

The era of Spring & Autumn and Warring States was before the Qin Dynasty.

sorry about the mistake. i was under that impression because of erhh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiang_Yu :wink: first word.. by the way i was under that impression because when you entered his name on the officer make menu on ROTK9 it makes him, and renames him Xiang Ji
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Cao Chao » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:09 pm

Xiang was his surname, Ji the given name. Yu was his style. Because of naming conventions (especially how you don't call someone by their given name unless you are older than them), Xiang Yu is what he is more commonly known as.

As for time periods:
  • Spring and Autumn Period (770-479 BC)
  • Warring States (476-221 BC)
  • Qin Dynasty (221-207 BC) - 207 is the year the Qin ruler stopped being an Emperor and instead became King
  • Chu-Han Contention (206-202 BC) - Xiang Yu was the Hegemonic King of Western Chu and with Liu Bang of the Han, one of the two major powers in the time period
  • Western Han Dynasty (202 BC-9 AD) - 202 is the year Liu Bang reunified China and became Emperor
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:03 pm

Cao Chao wrote:Xiang was his surname, Ji the given name. Yu was his style. Because of naming conventions (especially how you don't call someone by their given name unless you are older than them), Xiang Yu is what he is more commonly known as.

As for time periods:
  • Spring and Autumn Period (770-479 BC)
  • Warring States (476-221 BC)
  • Qin Dynasty (221-207 BC) - 207 is the year the Qin ruler stopped being an Emperor and instead became King
  • Chu-Han Contention (206-202 BC) - Xiang Yu was the Hegemonic King of Western Chu and with Liu Bang of the Han, one of the two major powers in the time period
  • Western Han Dynasty (202 BC-9 AD) - 202 is the year Liu Bang reunified China and became Emperor

i thought there was some kind of connection.. :oops: but hm, ill read these :D
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Cao Ah Man » Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:53 am

Alright, here's a good start for discussion:

How influential would you argue that the reforms of Lord Yang were in the final Qin Unification?

Many would say that they were the real key, the beginnings of the meritocracy and centralized government. Of course, Sima Qian however regarded Shang Yang as little more than a deceitful brute who got what he deserved when he was pulled to death.

What say you? Would the Qin have been able to pull themselves out of the rut they had gotten themselves stuck into regarding relations between the King and his overly powerful relatives?

And another small question just as a side note:

Would you consider Fan Sui's slander of Bai Qi (resulting in the great general's death) to have been a major detriment to the Qin unification, or could they take his loss- the final unification being inevitable?
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:56 pm

Sima Qian was a senile confucianist gentry without the balls to think outside of his biased and outdated ideology, and I meant that literally. BOOM!! :mrgreen: (j/k, he deserves our respects and sympathies however on his views on Shang Yang I respectfully disagree, and do believe the confucianism of the Han gentry contributed a lot to his bias)

I regard Shang Yang's reforms very necessary to Qin's reunification, and also for propelling China out of a feudal-slave era into an Imperial-serf era. Have you ever been to the lands of Qin? (Shaan-Xi, Gansu etc.) They're poor, infertile and sparsely populated. It would have been impossible for Qin to unify China without drastic reforms.

But then again, we have to argue whether a unified China is a good thing or not. I'd say that a fractured China would have propelled culture, the arts and such advancements much faster and also kept the population under control. It could have made East Asia into the second Europe. Which would have been interesting to say the least.
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Re: Spring & Autumn - Warring States

Unread postby Cao Ah Man » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:07 am

I have as a matter of fact; although with the way modern China is evolving you'd scarcely believe it. However judging by the terrain, I can certainly see why it was necessary for a strong hand to bring such a region to full efficiency.

So far as the question of a Unified China or a East Asian Europe, I think that's a question for another topic. ;)

Regardless I doubt it had to be Qin to unify the Empire, I don't see why there couldn't have been other states that might have attracted men of similar ideas as Shang Yang. After all many of able officials who helped create the Qin Empire and it's "legalist" (I hate applying labels) foundation were mostly foreigners. SHang Yang was a man of Wei, if I remember correctly. Fan Sui was one too, not to mention Li Si and countless others were all from foreign states. What's to say they might not have say, joined Chu, or some other power to create the first Imperial Dynasty?

I know some have argued that the original heritage of the Qin Dynasty, being from more warlike stock, and the hostility of the climate had some factor to the development of the Qin as a far more vibrant and aggressive when compared to the other states. Which brings up another question:

Did the states WANT unification? I know the precedents of the Five Hegemons remained in the mind of many of the kings, but they seemed to have no more interest in becoming the respected "boss" of the states, as opposed to anything more. Although you mentioned RE-unification. Would you argue a sense of "Chinese National Identity" (yes, I realize this is a can of worms, and probably will require a whole other topic) might have existed by then, harking back to the time of the Zhou and the Shang?

That aside, I have a question more for clarity of fact that your opinion. I have never exactly understood how the courts of the various states would have been set- I understand the basics of the later Imperial court, but what would the ones of the Chunqiu and Zhan Guo have looked like? Did the king have absolute authority or was the day to day running of government left mostly to his relatives and other aristocrats in each state?

(Frankly, thank you for your patience with me. I've always had great admiration for you, and your knowledge of Chinese history. Forgive my brown-nosing, but I honestly have three idols in the field; Patricia Ebrey who I worked with on my Undergraduate History Thesis; The great Dr. Rafe De Crespigny, and you! [being Crazedmongoose])
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