Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:08 pm

Sorry to butt in im new.
Did anyone here actually read The Book Of 5 Rings that Musashi wrote?
Cuz, it describes his philosophy in excellent detail.


Yes.

Also, he's considered the greatest swordsman in Japanese History because he used a stick to beat his opponents, that just says how fast deadly and effective a fighter Musashi was, Kojiro was his par opposite and couldve beaten him it was only because the oar Musashi had carved was longer than Kojiro's sword


No he's considered the greatest swordsman in Japanese history among WESTERN audiences because of legends like this. There were several other swordsmen who were just as good, if not better than Musashi. Tsukahara Bokuden being one of them.

ou also have to consider that he saw battle twice at Sekigahara and in Osaka,and lived thru it.


I think it has been successfully debunked in Japanese historical works that Musashi was not at Sekigahara. There is also serious doubt that he fought at Osaka. (And even more doubt, that he played any sort of significant role there if he was involved.) You forgot to mention the only DOCUMENTED evidence of Musashi being in a battle. That happened during the Shimabara Rebellion. The great Musashi was knocked off his horse by a peasant's rock toss. Compare that to the DOCUMENTED battlefield exploits of other "swordsmen" of the era and it is incredibly lacking. Once again, as an example Tsukahara Bokuden is documented to have fought in over 30 battles.

Like I said, Musashi is not the end all be all for Japanese swordsmen. He wrote a piece of work that gained popularity in the West well after his death. Almost every single Musashi legend has been written by his own hand.
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:16 pm

[quote][/quote]]Yes.

Also, he's considered the greatest swordsman in Japanese History because he used a stick to beat his opponents, that just says how fast deadly and effective a fighter Musashi was, Kojiro was his par opposite and couldve beaten him it was only because the oar Musashi had carved was longer than Kojiro's sword


No he's considered the greatest swordsman in Japanese history among WESTERN audiences because of legends like this. There were several other swordsmen who were just as good, if not better than Musashi. Tsukahara Bokuden being one of them.

ou also have to consider that he saw battle twice at Sekigahara and in Osaka,and lived thru it.


I think it has been successfully debunked in Japanese historical works that Musashi was not at Sekigahara. There is also serious doubt that he fought at Osaka. (And even more doubt, that he played any sort of significant role there if he was involved.) You forgot to mention the only DOCUMENTED evidence of Musashi being in a battle. That happened during the Shimabara Rebellion. The great Musashi was knocked off his horse by a peasant's rock toss. Compare that to the DOCUMENTED battlefield exploits of other "swordsmen" of the era and it is incredibly lacking. Once again, as an example Tsukahara Bokuden is documented to have fought in over 30 battles.

Like I said, Musashi is not the end all be all for Japanese swordsmen. He wrote a piece of work that gained popularity in the West well after his death. Almost every single Musashi legend has been written by his own hand.

point taken:

But: Just look at how Musashi trained hmself, 4years secluscion in the wild with nothing but 12 hrs per day training, so he got knocked off his horse and he may not have fought at Osaka. You cant use nit-picky little arguments to discredit him he didnt get killed he just wasnt observing the surroundings very well. its like saying because Zhuge Liang lost the battle at Chencang due to Hao Zhao destroying his siege weapons that he's not a great general. Or that Cao Cao got shot in the retreat from xie gu that hes a bad commander. There is no such thing as a unbeatable warrior, its just about who your opponent is. Look at Hannibal one of history's greatest commanders, he lost out to Rome superior resources and adaptations tactics and warfare as well as idiot civilian leaders at home. He still escaped alive and continued to fight Rome, they had to poison him thats how scared Rome was of this guy, they couldnt kill him in combat like men. Musashi may not be the greatest swordsmen argueable he is, but war does not determine greatness. Sima Rangju , his capable use of millatary law and civil governing kept the state of Qi alive. Wu Qi martialist of Wei faught 76 engagements and won 64, but it was because of his army's superior training, the resources provide by the Wei government, and knowing when to fight and when not to that he won those 64 battles, but guess what, the quotes acredited to him are all on civil - military collusion to win a war. To compare this, If Musashi had not perfected his sword technique so flawlessly he would have been killed in his first duel as a man, he would've been mobbed and killed by Lord Yoshioka's retainers if he hadnt learned how to be fast enough and how to fight multiple opponents.
Also dont you remember that history is written by the victors not the losers, Zhuge Liang, Musashi,Hannibal, Sima Rangju, there stories are documented because they won that they earned a place in history, do you think anyone remembers Xiang Yu King of chu, Yoshiteru ashikaga 12th Muromachi (or 13th not sure) shogun, no! They Lost and they are portrayed as bias and to one side, Xiang Yu may not have been evil for all we know, Lord ashikaga(trained by your above mentioned guy) may not have been as great a swordsmen they burning kyoto is maybe an excuse to cover his actually death. History is never exact , it is only told by those who came out ALIVE!
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:21 pm

I apologize for not placing quotes around the above arguments i used to reference i will next time!
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:42 pm

But: Just look at how Musashi trained hmself, 4years secluscion in the wild with nothing but 12 hrs per day training, so he got knocked off his horse and he may not have fought at Osaka. You cant use nit-picky little arguments to discredit him


Nit picky? So saying that someone gets credit for participating in battles that they did not is nit picky? I'm sorry, but I find that to be a pretty big deal. For the record, I have no problem in believing that Musashi was present at Osaka. However, I have no doubt that he contributed next to nothing to the battle.

he didnt get killed he just wasnt observing the surroundings very well.


But wouldn't you expect the most super awesome swordsman of all time history to always be aware of his surroundings? ;)

Look at Hannibal one of history's greatest commanders, he lost out to Rome superior resources and adaptations tactics and warfare as well as idiot civilian leaders at home. He still escaped alive and continued to fight Rome, they had to poison him thats how scared Rome was of this guy, they couldnt kill him in combat like men. Musashi may not be the greatest swordsmen argueable he is, but war does not determine greatness. Sima Rangju , his capable use of millatary law and civil governing kept the state of Qi alive. Wu Qi martialist of Wei faught 76 engagements and won 64, but it was because of his army's superior training, the resources provide by the Wei government, and knowing when to fight and when not to that he won those 64 battles, but guess what, the quotes acredited to him are all on civil - military collusion to win a war. To compare this, If Musashi had not perfected his sword technique so flawlessly he would have been killed in his first duel as a man, he would've been mobbed and killed by Lord Yoshioka's retainers if he hadnt learned how to be fast enough and how to fight multiple opponents.


I'm sorry, but you lost me here. I don't see what any of these men have to do with Musashi or his legend.

Also dont you remember that history is written by the victors not the losers


What exactly was Musashi the victor of? There are countless documents from this period in Japanese history that detail the exploits of men on both winning and losing sides of the battle. However, almost anything from this period written ABOUT Musashi was written BY Musashi himself. That's a little bit different than "victors writing history."

I apologize for not placing quotes around the above arguments i used to reference i will next time!


No worries! I haven't exactly mastered the quotes function myself. :oops:
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:08 pm

Hmm...
i agree i mean i was making an analogy of comparisons so if i lost you im sorry : :(
Yet, ehh ... let me think a while.
Hmm, also i guess we need to analze more than just 3 or 4 Japanese swordsmen. comparing musashi
to kojiro and Bokuden just doesnt seem enough, i will wait for someone to throw in their next opinion before tackling the argument again.
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:27 pm

i agree i mean i was making an analogy of comparisons so if i lost you im sorry : :(


No apologies necessary. I'm sure the confusion is all on my end. :D

Hmm, also i guess we need to analze more than just 3 or 4 Japanese swordsmen. comparing musashi
to kojiro and Bokuden just doesnt seem enough, i will wait for someone to throw in their next opinion before tackling the argument again.


Personally, I don't think Musashi holds a candle to Bokuden. There's a reason the latter is often portrayed as the trainer of Musashi in fictional prints. :)

Another name I'll throw out there is Matsumoto Bizen mo kami ki no Masamoto. Here's a very short bio I wrote on him a while back:

Masamoto boasted a stellar career that contained a list of achievements even longer than his name. He was a master swordsman who played a major role in the formation of the Kashima-Shinryu. He also wrote the Tenju Sho, a treatise on martial arts. Masamoto fought in over 20 battles during his career. He is reported to have taken more than 70 heads in at least 3 of those battles! Masamoto hasn't received the attention that Miyamoto Musashi and Tsukahara Bokuden have mainly because he never participated in any duels. His reputation was solely based on his battlefield exploits.
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:46 pm

thanks...
yeah i mean there is alot of Musashi fiction and tales that are uncorroberatred so i see where your coming from.
I have heard of some famous Bizen swordmakers let me refer my History Of Japan book will name tommorow.
Matsumoto of Bizen, huh...., i cant recall the name , id love to read a description so feel free.
The arguements are good just, The West, we ignorant of anything thats unpopular so i see why Musashi is so un acclaimed to you so. :)
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:48 pm

wait Bizen province or actual last name cause, ive heard the 'of Bizen' thing in many places. (not just Nagamasa azai in SW2) so,???????
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:23 pm

Matsumoto of Bizen, huh...., i cant recall the name , id love to read a description so feel free.


Legacies of The Sword by Karl Friday is the best English source I have. It's all about the Kashima-Shinryu. Do you read Japanese?

wait Bizen province or actual last name cause, ive heard the 'of Bizen' thing in many places. (not just Nagamasa azai in SW2) so,???????


That's simply a title. Bizen no Kami basically means the Governor of Bizen. It's a distinction that's been held by quite a few people over the years.
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Re: Miyamoto Musashi - What's so great about him?

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:25 pm

sorry for my inconsistency in posts. Yes i thought it was that, like umm... The sword kojiro carried was made by Nagamitsu of Bizen, so thats what i was thinking. Will get back soon with more thoughts. And thanks for lively arguements and good info. :)
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