The most efficient ninja

Discuss historical events and information concerning any culture, time, or location in our world (or even the frontier beyond).

The most efficient ninja

the Seppi
0
No votes
the Fuma
0
No votes
the Iga
7
88%
the Koga
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby SunXia » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:57 am

I still agree with the thought that obviously the best ninja are those that we know nothing about since their job is to remain hidden and unknown to those around them!! It's like the countless CIA men we know nothing about yet they are amazing CIA men because they are hidden!!
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby Tiger of Kai » Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:45 pm

I think one thing that's important to remember in this discussion is that "ninja" and "samurai" were not entirely mutually exclusive terms. A ninja was more or less a samurai with a special skill set. For example, Hattori Hanzo was of samurai status, but he would be considered a ninja because he specialized in intelligence and espionage.

As for the world famous Iga and Koga clans. I found this description by Pierre Souyri to be pretty interesting:

So thoroughgoing has been the romanticization of the ninja tradition that few modern Japanese, let alone people outside of Japan, know of their origins as local warriors and farmers of a mountainous region in central Japan who fought for autonomy from outside rule during the sixteenth century. Once they were vanquished by Oda Nobunaga's overwhelming military force, some of the survivors (and not a few imitators, it must be imagined) in Iga and Koga sold their services to the new Tokugawa overlords as mountain guides, spies, guards, and assassins-representing a sort of early modern SWAT team. Iga and Koga "schools on ninja training" sprang up around Japan to capitalize on their reputation for prowess, and to help them sell it, the schools invented a tradition of ninja wisdom with supposedly ancient roots.


Nonetheless, the people of Iga and Koga managed to invent a tradition of much longer duration than their own political order, that of the ninja (literally, "hidden people" or "forbearing ones," shinobimono), whose origins were once thought to be even older. Some ninja, in fact, would actively propagate the erroneous account of their past, creating false old documents to "prove" their old tradition and lineage.
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby Tigger of Kai » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:36 pm

Tiger of Kai wrote:the schools invented a tradition of ninja wisdom with supposedly ancient roots...Some ninja, in fact, would actively propagate the erroneous account of their past, creating false old documents to "prove" their old tradition and lineage.

Love it! What else would we expect from them?
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:47 pm

Tigger of Kai wrote:
Tiger of Kai wrote:the schools invented a tradition of ninja wisdom with supposedly ancient roots...Some ninja, in fact, would actively propagate the erroneous account of their past, creating false old documents to "prove" their old tradition and lineage.

Love it! What else would we expect from them?


Indeed.

I do agree with Tiger of Kai in regards the difference (or lack thereof) between ninja and samurai. As for the most efficient ninja, I also agree with SunXia. Why should we know who the most efficient ninja was? He or she should have died without his or her name ever being known.
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby ArnelMachida » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:13 am

Zappa wrote:Kataro Fuma was a good ninja but considering to Igas reputation as extreme feared squad at the Segoku Jidai I would say Iga.
Also because of Hanzo Hattori my fav. ninja :D


There is no need to post. I agreed above.
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby Stedfel » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:29 pm

My gut instinct is to go with the Iga as what little source material I have looked at seems to point to them as the originators of the tradition, with the Koga developing at a later date. Making a huge leap of logic, it seems that the other clans arose as mimics of the Iga and the Koga.

My second instinct is to go with the winners, of which it seems that the argument still revolves around Iga and Koga. Both were wiped out at roughly the same period of time and remnants of the groups went on to serve Tokugawa Ieyasu. He used both as guards (though it seems as though he preferred the Iga for this role) and as a kind of special operations (for which he seems to prefer Koga).

The whole situation makes me wander how big of a distinction was made at the time. By the time they really seem to matter (after Nobunaga has driven them to Tokugawa) they seem to be on (more or less) the same side. It reminds me of the concept that, for a totalitarian power to remain in office, they need to establish several intelligence agencies that constantly watch each other and act against each other in order to guarantee that they don't conspire against the overall leader. I kind of wonder if that's what Tokugawa was doing, and a better distinction between the clans might be Tokugawa-Aligned Ninja Clans and Non-Tokugawa Aligned Ninja Clans.
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby TheWrathPrince » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:00 am

but is your really bet to the list?
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:47 am

Which clan was Kato Danzo from? I vote for that one.
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Re: The most efficient ninja

Unread postby AwesomeFrancis » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:41 am

I thought this thread was locked.

Well for me, The past best ninja clans are the seppi family I think.
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