Favorite Historical Samurai

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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:37 am

Hm if it wasn't akechi i have reasons to beleive nobunaga would have been done in by some form or another. as for Shingen, he was not in a position to defeat oda, he would have very likley however destroyed the tokugawa or at least put him in a position that would make him useless to oda. The Hojo were no a threat to shingen mainly because they allied with them after i beleive it was ujimasa? idk the hojo family is too big. iv bee nto the site of nagashino and i have to say katsuyori could have EASILY constructed his own barricade and stopped oda in much the same manner (the battle of nagashino was won due to the infantry mostly and in fact not as much muskets were present as you may think) i think if shingen lived a little while longer, his lands and clan would have grown strong i mean he did create a war machine and the fact that the takeda army even punched a hole in and got as far as they did up hill int oa barricade at nagashino shows there elite reputation. but taking out tokugawa and then absorbing mikawa no tokugawa, clans like the azai would have been much more a threat to oda. this does not mean oda would be wiped out, a long drawn out seige war agasint oda would not be something shingen can invest easily in.

it all boils down to,
1. shingen living to wipe out tokugawa
2. shingen further develops his men and land
3. shingen dies inevitebly
3. katsuyori not F-ing up anything before either oda gets in a tight spot or gets betrayed.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:12 pm

I disagree. He was a treacherous vassal. Nobunaga can do whatever he wish.

Wow thats quite hard, but i guess vassal is vassal

And Ieyasu wouldn't have reaped the rewards.

I always felt that Ieyasu kinda stole the victory, I mean he deserved it for winning at Sekigahara but he did barely nothing compared to Oda and Hideyoshi who really had to struggle for their power.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm

as for Shingen, he was not in a position to defeat oda, he would have very likley however destroyed the tokugawa or at least put him in a position that would make him useless to oda.


I have to disagree here Shingen had the advantage as well as the ressourcefullness that was required to beat the Oda.
Lets say he couldnt beat the Oda that would mean:
1)He couldnt destroy the Tokugawa as well since they were allies and would always help each other and
2)He (beeing clever) would strenghern his Army till his dead, the result would be a hell of a army and even katsuyori wouldnt mess that up

the battle of nagashino was won due to the infantry mostly and in fact not as much muskets were present as you may think

WTF? Oda had 3000 muskets let alone the cannons they had.That is quite a lot for that time.
Of course you know that this battle is considered as the turning point of japanic warfare, their tactic was unique they did not need 10000 muskets because they used them wisely.The battle marks the of the new world over the old and not the victory of infantry over infantry.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:54 pm

i think you should do more in-depth research on that battle, oda had significantly alot less muskets and NO cannons, cannons were very rarely used in japan, he also never implemented the rapid fire technique, muskets were mainly used for support and the battle of nagashino was won by his infantry and fortification and the fact katsuyori was stupid enough to charge his army at the wall whitch was not comprised of all horsemen in fact was actually more infantry. Shingen was not in a position at that time, his stretegic location was dulled by powerful surrounding enemies like the uesugi, the Hojo allied with them that helped alot however and is what would spell the end of tokugawa.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:52 pm

Ive done some and thats what i found:

Nobunaga built a number of wooden stockades, setting up his gunners to attack the Takeda cavalry in volleys.
The Takeda horses slowed to cross the stream, and were fired upon as they crested the streambed within 50 meters of the enemy. This was considered the optimum distance to penetrate the armor of the cavalry. In typical military strategy, the success of any cavalry charge depends on the infantry breaking ranks so that the cavalry can mow them down. If the infantry does not break, however, cavalry charges will often fail - with even trained warhorses refusing to advance into the solid ranks of opponents.Between the continuous fire of the arquebusiers’ volleys and the rigid control of the horo-shu, the Oda stood their ground, and were able to repel every charge.

To sum things up:
The defeat of the famous Takeda cavalry also signified a change in the general style of warfare, away from the more 'aristocratic' cavalry combats and a melee-weapon infantry to a less personal, more industrialised warfare depending on advanced equipment and new tactics as much as on personal valor.After the Battle of Nagashino, arquebuses became a standard military asset in Japanese warfare.

If they were really were so useless as you say whay would this battle mark the beginning of a new warfare?
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:12 pm

never said the musket was useless, im saying nobunaga oda only deployed 1000 muskets not the 3000 most resources state, he did fire on the takeda but im saying by the end of the day the credit goes to the barricaded infantry winning the battle, also there is only 1 known cavalry charge that happened during that battle, since only 47% of the takeda forces were present meaning a total of about 4,000 cavalry, that would have been destroyed by musket fire and heavily fortified infantry, the layout of nagashino was hilly, so the takeda crossed the river got fired at, and then charged up hill into a barricade. It was choice of ground and natural ma nmad defenses that won the battle for nobunaga not the gun alone. There is no real evidence that rotating fire accured, infact im willing to bet archer fire was used to keep up missile projection.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:15 pm

also there is only 1 known cavalry charge that happened during that battle, since only 47% of the takeda forces were present meaning a total of about 4,000 cavalry, that would have been destroyed by musket fire and heavily fortified infantry


Where do you get those numbers from?

And again if the riffles played such a minor role why the hack is this battle considered as turning point?
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:40 pm

romanticism,and i got the numbers of guns from an article by Taniguchi Katsuhiro called "Nagashino no Kassen no Gimon." the number of takeda soldiers are from battle records in other articles from various sengoku writers, takeda soldiers of horseman were not deployed in large groups usually only a margin of horsemen to ashigaru and only 47% of his army actually participated in the field battle the other percent of his army was still besieging nagashino the 4,000 was an estimate on my part on how many of his troops were cavalry, since most of his infantry and missle troops were at nagashino out of the 6,000 he had at the field battle im estimating 4,000 of those were cavalry. it was not the turning point of warfare in japan, the turning point was already constantly happening Guns were being deployed more and more, horses were tossed in favor of tight infantry groups with musket support. Even then they dismounted to fight mainly because it was raining a few days prior and anyone who knows horsemanship will know horses running in thick mud is not fun.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:24 pm

it was not the turning point of warfare in japan


Hmm I see its just weird that its always mentioned as turning point, on many historical sites in the internet etc.
I guess they just all lack in accuracy and informations.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Pierre Beauregard » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:37 am

Zappa wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:
dymlos timbre wrote:because Oda is protrayed as cruel and merciless when shingen himself that did things that were way worse than oda, not to mention some of the things that happened during hideyoshi's korean campaign would make nobunaga look like a saint.


Oh I'm aware he portrayed as some 'evil' tyrant. I view him and his rise to power, as well as Hideyoshi's, as inspiring though. He unified Japan, you don't usually get to do that by playing nice.


He wasnt soooo cruel, not more than other warlords. It was a era of bloodsheed Nobunaga hadnt much choices but he had to pay the price of his action at Honoji.

Pierre Beauregard wrote:how about Kobayakawa Hidekane he was loyal family men and was one of the great leaders in the korean campaign and one of the closes advicers and friend of Hideyoshi.


Kobayakawa was the Mitsuhide Akechi of the pre Hideyoshi Era, the Clan betrayed their Lord at Sekigahara alongside with the Mori.



no dude he was nowhere near the same as akechi. the one im talking about whats a great thinker and follow u should read before u post lol
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