Favorite Historical Samurai

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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Sat May 15, 2010 4:27 am

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=852

Read that before you do, lol they make more sense out of why i support oda than i do. an alliance between them would be next to impossible or it would have happened the hojo had more interest in the takeda than they did the Oda (this is true even after nagashino)
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun May 16, 2010 6:21 pm

Not sure why everyone hates on Oda and Hideyoshi. I'd support them before any others.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Mon May 17, 2010 3:52 am

because Oda is protrayed as cruel and merciless when shingen himself that did things that were way worse than oda, not to mention some of the things that happened during hideyoshi's korean campaign would make nobunaga look like a saint.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon May 17, 2010 1:34 pm

dymlos timbre wrote:because Oda is protrayed as cruel and merciless when shingen himself that did things that were way worse than oda, not to mention some of the things that happened during hideyoshi's korean campaign would make nobunaga look like a saint.


Oh I'm aware he portrayed as some 'evil' tyrant. I view him and his rise to power, as well as Hideyoshi's, as inspiring though. He unified Japan, you don't usually get to do that by playing nice.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Pierre Beauregard » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:00 am

how about Kobayakawa Hidekane he was loyal family men and was one of the great leaders in the korean campaign and one of the closes advicers and friend of Hideyoshi.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:32 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
dymlos timbre wrote:because Oda is protrayed as cruel and merciless when shingen himself that did things that were way worse than oda, not to mention some of the things that happened during hideyoshi's korean campaign would make nobunaga look like a saint.


Oh I'm aware he portrayed as some 'evil' tyrant. I view him and his rise to power, as well as Hideyoshi's, as inspiring though. He unified Japan, you don't usually get to do that by playing nice.


He wasnt soooo cruel, not more than other warlords. It was a era of bloodsheed Nobunaga hadnt much choices but he had to pay the price of his action at Honoji.

Pierre Beauregard wrote:how about Kobayakawa Hidekane he was loyal family men and was one of the great leaders in the korean campaign and one of the closes advicers and friend of Hideyoshi.


Kobayakawa was the Mitsuhide Akechi of the pre Hideyoshi Era, the Clan betrayed their Lord at Sekigahara alongside with the Mori.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:39 pm

dymlos timbre wrote:I wish to ask, what do you think might have happened had shingen takeda lived a few more years (this can be applied to kenshin uesugi as well) do you htink he would have destroyed the oda-Tokugawa alliance? you have to remember shingen Won at mikatagahara BUT it was not a decisive defeat, tokugawa quickly recover'd afterwards and Conducted raids on the takeda camp (reminds me of hefei lol).


Well the demise of the Takeda came with their defeat at nagashino would that have happened with Shigen in charge? i dont think so.Katsuyori was more a warrior or a leader than a strategiest,Katsuyori gave the order to charge forward, Shingen would have found another sollution and since the takeda had the advantage they could have crushed Oda Tokugawa. If kenshin had lived longer it wouldnt have changed much i guess. His victory at tedorigawa marked how far he could go, the Uesugi were done after four rounds of kawankajima and many years of fighting in Kanto and unlike Shingen the Uesugi had no allies.Kenshin even though he was awesome would have waged war till the uesugi would have been destroyed.His dead forced the uesugi to stay passive which in the end lead to the survival of the Uesugi clan.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:47 pm

Zappa wrote:
He wasnt soooo cruel, not more than other warlords. It was a era of bloodsheed Nobunaga hadnt much choices but he had to pay the price of his action at Honoji.


If you're asserting the deserved to be betrayed, I disagree. His actions did not force a little and pathetic man to be ambitious. That was merely human evil. His actions didn't really precipitate Akechi's, Akechi would have acted the same regardless.
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Zappa » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:30 pm

I never said that he deserved it, but this was the situation:

In 1579 Mitsuhide captured Yakami Castle from Hatano Hideharu by promising him peace terms. But Nobunaga betrayed the peace agreement and had Hideharu executed. This displeased the Hatano family, and a short while later several of Hideharu's retainers murdered Akechi Mitsuhide's mother. The situation was fueled through several public insults Nobunaga had directed at Mitsuhide.

Well Id say Nobunaga kinda provocated him.Its a pitty that Mitsuhide succeded in his plot. A Japan under Nobunaga could have been a new Superpower.

But there is another thing:
The Akechi family was able to trace their heritage to the Toki clan and from there to the Minamoto clan. Minamoto Yoritomo brought the destruction of the Taira clan the same way Mitsuhide brought an end to Nobunaga, who traces his ancestry to the Taira clan.

Could this have been destined, was it fate? :D
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Re: Favorite Historical Samurai

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:10 pm

Zappa wrote:I never said that he deserved it,


And that was what I was concerned with


In 1579 Mitsuhide captured Yakami Castle from Hatano Hideharu by promising him peace terms. But Nobunaga betrayed the peace agreement and had Hideharu executed. This displeased the Hatano family, and a short while later several of Hideharu's retainers murdered Akechi Mitsuhide's mother. The situation was fueled through several public insults Nobunaga had directed at Mitsuhide.


I'm quite aware of the situation. I don't really care what Nobunaga did, or what Mitsuhide errantly promised. This was a matter of rebellion.

Well Id say Nobunaga kinda provocated him.


I disagree. He was a treacherous vassal. Nobunaga can do whatever he wish.


Its a pitty that Mitsuhide succeded in his plot. A Japan under Nobunaga could have been a new Superpower.


Definitely agreed here. And Ieyasu wouldn't have reaped the rewards.
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