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Best strategist ever in Chinese History

Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:02 pm
by Dragon_Lord
Sun Tzu in my book

Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:44 am
by someguy44
Snake wrote:I don't see how Sun Tzu could rate as the grestest strategist.

He himself most likely never used them so it's imposible, and quite idiotic, to say that he is the greatest or that he could defeat anyone else in a battle.

Maybe Yue Fei or Cao Cao should be up there.


In theory, he is. How many generals used his book as their "bible" throughout history? If his book wasn't great, then how can he not be a great strategist? Besides, he did train a bunch of palace maidens to become great warriors.

Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:02 pm
by Snake
someguy44 wrote:
Snake wrote:I don't see how Sun Tzu could rate as the grestest strategist.

He himself most likely never used them so it's imposible, and quite idiotic, to say that he is the greatest or that he could defeat anyone else in a battle.

Maybe Yue Fei or Cao Cao should be up there.


In theory, he is. How many generals used his book as their "bible" throughout history? If his book wasn't great, then how can he not be a great strategist? Besides, he did train a bunch of palace maidens to become great warriors.


And? Just because many people follow it doesn't make it the best.

And as I said, he wrote a book. He probably never had an army and never proved himself as a great leader in an actual battle.

As is the case with Ma Su, being knowledgable and knowing all their is to learn fron reading is one thing, but when it comes to an actual battle things don't always turn out how they do on paper.

Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:34 pm
by Rommel
Snake wrote:And? Just because many people follow it doesn't make it the best.

And as I said, he wrote a book. He probably never had an army and never proved himself as a great leader in an actual battle.


Sun Tzu didn't lead an army? Are you sure? Was he the one who helped his master to become the most powerful warlord during his time?

Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:41 pm
by bodidley
The only referance we have to Sun Tzu as a historical figure is a short, and rather vague biography by Sima Qian. In that he doesn't lead many armies or change the course of history.

Based on his track record, Sun Tzu cannot be considered the greatest general of all time; only based on his military manual can one make that assertion. Sun Tzu didn't invent strategic theory either. He is far pre-dated by the Tai Gung, and parts of Sun Wu Bing Fa are derivative of the Six Secret Teachings of the Tai Gung.

Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:52 am
by Snake
The only referance we have to Sun Tzu as a historical figure is a short, and rather vague biography by Sima Qian. In that he doesn't lead many armies or change the course of history.

Based on his track record, Sun Tzu cannot be considered the greatest general of all time; only based on his military manual can one make that assertion. Sun Tzu didn't invent strategic theory either. He is far pre-dated by the Tai Gung, and parts of Sun Wu Bing Fa are derivative of the Six Secret Teachings of the Tai Gung.


Thank you Mr. Didley.

Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:37 am
by Cao Chao
Snake wrote:I don't see how Sun Tzu could rate as the grestest strategist.

He himself most likely never used them so it's imposible, and quite idiotic, to say that he is the greatest or that he could defeat anyone else in a battle.

Maybe Yue Fei or Cao Cao should be up there.

Sunzi aka Sun Wu did use his tactics in battle. He served the kingdom of Wu and during his service made Wu into one of the greatest and strongest kingdoms of the period, primarily through his tactics and his training of the soldiers. However, after seeing the depravity of a new King of Wu and of another important scholar/strategist by the name of Wu Zixu, Sunzi left Wu's service and moved on, becoming a hermit, where he eventually put down all of his thoughts on military tactics and warfare into his monumental book.

Anyways, my list of famous Chinese strategists, in some assemblance of order...

1. Sunzi (author of the Art of War and an important military strategist that served the kingdom of Wu)
2. Jiang Ziya (famous and mythical strategist that helped bring about the end of the Shang Dynasty and found the Zhou Dynasty)
3. Zhang Liang (talented advisor of Han Gaozu)
4. Wu Qi (a talented general of the Warring States Period that served several kingdoms, he instituted widespread military reforms)
5. Chen Ping (advisor to Han Gaozu)
6. Sun Bin (descendant of Sunzi and author of his book on military strategies; a fellow student by the name of Pang Juan attempted to kill Sun Bin, but only succeeded in breaking the man's legs; later on, Sun Bin would have the satisfaction of trapping, ambushing, and killing Pang Juan)
7. Yue Fei (a valiant and tactically astute general during the Song Dynasty that worked to repel the Jin (Manchu) invaders, as well as recapture territory lost by the dynasty; he was later accused of treason and executed)
8. Han Xin (talented general and strategist that served under Han Gaozu; so important that Xiao He left his duties and chased after him)
9. Zhu Yuanzhang (founder of the Ming Dynasty)
10. Li Zicheng (the immensely successful rebel commander that succeeded in capturing Beijing and effectively ended the Ming Dynasty; founded the short lived Shun Dynasty; later defeated by the combined force of Wu Sangui and the Qing invaders)
11. Liu Xiu (founder of the Western Han Dynasty and a talented strategist)

Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:31 pm
by TheRealWolfman
I gotta say Zhuge Liang, i consider the only one that can go against him is Sun Tzu, that guys book is like the bible for military tactics (even though i haven't read both yet, but they are on my list for lifetime goals).

Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:24 pm
by Cao Chao
If you understand the true historical Zhuge Kongming, you would know that he was in reality a relatively poor battlefield tactician and strategist. He was a great politician and administrator, but not a great strategist.