Best strategist ever in Chinese History

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Unread postby Subotai » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:40 pm

lessthanpleased wrote:Given the little I know, I would rank the Chairman first. While Mao lacks the panache of the fictional Zhuge Liang (and probably the historical Kongming as well), at the end of the day what the Chairman did worked from a military standpoint.

I would rank him above Sun Tzu: just as Sun Tzu reportedly learned lessons from military strategists of the past, so did Mao. But Mao, rather than being a mere academic or theoretician, used his knowledge to turn hordes of peasants into a force that brought a government to its knees, created revolution, and survived the aftermath to be the absolute ruler. What he didn't synthesize from Sun Tzu, he surely synthesized from Machiavelli, Napoleon, and probably even Julius Caesar in his Account of the Gallic Wars, all of which would have been studied by an academic during his time period.

The amount Mao accomplished is almost unthinkable given the resources he was allocated. He outshines even the fictional Zhuge Liang insofar as he began with similar resources (the hearts of the peope) and did what the deity never could: unified China.

The man was a genius. Not a very nice person, or even good person towards the end, but a stunning tactician.

-neal


Mao took most (if not all ) of his miltary teachings from Sun Tzu.
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Unread postby Wo Long » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:22 am

the glorious sun jian wrote:the best warlord is lu meng he isn,t just smart but strong too also he didn,t think he is perfect and his plane to capture guan yu was great (dont say it was lu xun,s )


I really don't think people from the 3K should be allowed. No offense or anything, everyone is entitled to their own opinion afterall, but I personally think that the Warring States era produced some of the greatest tactitians. Han Xin, Zhang Liang, Chen Ping, and Wu Qi. Now, there are many that are from other eras like Sun Wu, but really, no one from the 3K era can compare to other geniuses.
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Unread postby lessthanpleased » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:47 am

Subotai wrote:Mao took most (if not all ) of his miltary teachings from Sun Tzu.


Hence why my statement read: "What he didn't synthesize from Sun Tzu...".

Given that the thread is entitled greatest strategist, and given that not all strategy is necessarily or explicitly war-time strategy, I felt it necessary to mention the fusion of approaches in Mao. Mao's actual tenure as ruler of China is straight out of Machiavelli's The Prince moreso than it is out of any of the other influences upon Mao.

Unless, of course, Mao decided- against all evidence to the contrary- that civilian militias are better overall in their military use than mobilized strike units like cavalry and tanks (as Machiavelli argues in his very own The Art of War), then I think its safe that Macchiavelli's influence on Mao was more readily seen in domestics than in warfare.

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Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:03 am

Wo Long wrote:
the glorious sun jian wrote:the best warlord is lu meng he isn,t just smart but strong too also he didn,t think he is perfect and his plane to capture guan yu was great (dont say it was lu xun,s )


I really don't think people from the 3K should be allowed. No offense or anything, everyone is entitled to their own opinion afterall, but I personally think that the Warring States era produced some of the greatest tactitians. Han Xin, Zhang Liang, Chen Ping, and Wu Qi. Now, there are many that are from other eras like Sun Wu, but really, no one from the 3K era can compare to other geniuses.

You state that people form 3K shouldn't be alot cause there's better? It sounds like you just discredit what alot of people said. I for one think Zhuge Liang is the best, also lets not forget that the 3K book was a great peice of propaganda which help China push out the Mongolians so they[3K greats] should also get credit for just being there.

By the way Lu Meng only got land by befriending an ally then attack him while he was away, I still think he was Wu's best though.
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Unread postby Shu_Tian_Wei_Da_Jiang_Jun » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:07 pm

Well, from a purely military standpoint, we cannot really say anything about Zhuge Liang; one'd have to give him the grade of "incomplete" based on his track record (could have done a whole lot militarily if he had lived longer)

I think his domestic and political accomplishments in the founding of Shu-Han put him up there though.
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Unread postby Jordan » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:29 pm

lessthanpleased wrote:
Subotai wrote:Mao took most (if not all ) of his miltary teachings from Sun Tzu.


Hence why my statement read: "What he didn't synthesize from Sun Tzu...".

Given that the thread is entitled greatest strategist, and given that not all strategy is necessarily or explicitly war-time strategy, I felt it necessary to mention the fusion of approaches in Mao. Mao's actual tenure as ruler of China is straight out of Machiavelli's The Prince moreso than it is out of any of the other influences upon Mao.

Unless, of course, Mao decided- against all evidence to the contrary- that civilian militias are better overall in their military use than mobilized strike units like cavalry and tanks (as Machiavelli argues in his very own The Art of War), then I think its safe that Macchiavelli's influence on Mao was more readily seen in domestics than in warfare.

-neal


What about Mao's generals Peng Dehuai and Lin Biao? I think they deserve credit for some of his victories too. Unless we're not just talking about battle strategists but overall smarts of rulers too.
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Unread postby Fated Emperor » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:13 am

Sima Yi!!!! God Dammit we gotta give him more apreciation, after all even though wei shu and wu fought for years and years on, his family got the empire at the end.
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Unread postby lessthanpleased » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:26 am

Slick Slicer:

I was talking about overall smarts.

-neal
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Re: Best strategist ever in Chinese History

Unread postby Shuforces » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:00 am

Let's separate the real Zhuge Liang with the romantisized one . The real Zhuge presumably sought Liu Bei so he could serve him but this is as accurate as saying that Liu Bei visited him 3 times . In 2 words , he came to serve Xuande(Liu Bei) after the battle of Bo Wang Po, not before . The Longzhong plan is a real existing historical artifact which indeed Zhuge presented to his lord . He was a very skilled diplomat and historically and fictionally did go as an envoy to secure peace and an alliance between the Liu-Wu forces .
He was also a meteorologist and could understand and read the weather. His only role in Chi Bi was to tell the Wu forces to continue with the fire attack because at this time of the year the wind changes . Before the fire attack had occured he set up general Zhao Yun , Zhang Fei and Guan Yu to lay ambushes and went on to collect taxes . He has primal role in subjugating Jing province and not allowing the Wu forces to capture even one city . In 5 years he was able to recruit 30 000 troops before the Liu forces invaded Ba Shu. Main role in that campaign had Fa Zheng and Jian Wei ( not sure if that was his name) . Zhuge stayed behind to govern the province in case It was attacked by Wei or Wu . He joined the campaign after the death of Pang Tong and left Jing to Guan Yu. He was the chief officer in the battle of Huang Zhong which was won by the Shu forces . After the betrayal of Wu , the death of Guan Yu and his whole force , Liu Bei led a campaign himself as he left only 50 000 troops in Ba Shu with which Zhuge could defend in case of an attack . Xuande took around 200 000 thousand men from which only 1/4 returned . Liu Bei died and Zhuge was all alone . He subjugated the Nan Mans at the point that he knew they won't rebel and recruited some of their officers into his army . He is considered the inventor of the Mantou( a type of bread ), the landmine , the wooden ox ( which was a mechanical wheelbarrow) , the automatic arbalet which could be loaded whit 10 arrows and shoot all of them consecutively (was used in the battle of Chi Bi , although the arbalet was invented during the warring states period but could only shoot 1 arrow and was slower and couldn't shoot as far ) as well as the so called sky lantern which is famous around he world today . He wrote the 36 Stratagems and Mastering the art of war , as well as a couple of other literary works . The whole collapse of the Three Kingdoms happened because of some traitors named ''Wu'' who considered themselves as successors of Sun Tzu .
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Re: Best strategist ever in Chinese History

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:47 pm

Welcome to the forum Shuforces, hope you join us in the three kingdoms section

The real Zhuge presumably sought Liu Bei so he could serve him but this is as accurate as saying that Liu Bei visited him 3 times .


The SGZ does say Liu Bei visited Zhuge Liang rather then the other way round

Unfortunately a lot of what you talk about is the novel Zhuge Liang, bolded all the novel only parts

He was also a meteorologist and could understand and read the weather. His only role in Chi Bi was to tell the Wu forces to continue with the fire attack because at this time of the year the wind changes . Before the fire attack had occured he set up general Zhao Yun , Zhang Fei and Guan Yu to lay ambushes and went on to collect taxes . He has primal role in subjugating Jing province and not allowing the Wu forces to capture even one city . In 5 years he was able to recruit 30 000 troops before the Liu forces invaded Ba Shu. Main role in that campaign had Fa Zheng and Jian Wei ( not sure if that was his name) . Zhuge stayed behind to govern the province in case It was attacked by Wei or Wu . He joined the campaign after the death of Pang Tong and left Jing to Guan Yu. He was the chief officer in the battle of Huang Zhong which was won by the Shu forces . After the betrayal of Wu , the death of Guan Yu and his whole force , Liu Bei led a campaign himself as he left only 50 000 troops in Ba Shu with which Zhuge could defend in case of an attack . Xuande took around 200 000 thousand men from which only 1/4 returned . Liu Bei died and Zhuge was all alone . He subjugated the Nan Mans at the point that he knew they won't rebel and recruited some of their officers into his army .


The whole collapse of the Three Kingdoms happened because of some traitors named ''Wu'' who considered themselves as successors of Sun Tzu .


The some traitors were a more powerful kingdom who changed the course of Chinese history due to their work in the long neglected south. The Suns did claim lineage to Sun Tzu but it wasn't particularly important. Longzhong plan was always a long shot but yes, Wu's 219 invasion after a long superating alliance effectively killed Shu's chances
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