Page 4 of 4

Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:53 am
by Mistelten
Secession was protected by the constitution. The CSA was no more of a congregation of traitors than were the founding fathers. Not only that, but the Union captured and imprisoned diplomats going to England and France(ironically, the same cause for the war of 1812, just with reversed parties).
The secession of the Confederate States was a libertarian/decentralist political process. It was also unviolent, until a then foreign unit of troops were told to keep their presence-- in a country that had asked them to leave.
-----------------------------

I don't think there is a more famous traitor during wartime than Akechi Mitsuhide. Had he not killed Nobunaga, the country would most likely have been unified much sooner.

Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:55 pm
by Jiang Zhi
Battle of Bosworth Fields......

Lord Stanely defects to Henry Tudor. England MIGHT be a Catholic Plantagenate state now :P

Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:16 am
by lessthanpleased
crashman wrote:Secession was protected by the constitution. The CSA was no more of a congregation of traitors than were the founding fathers. Not only that, but the Union captured and imprisoned diplomats going to England and France(ironically, the same cause for the war of 1812, just with reversed parties).
The secession of the Confederate States was a libertarian/decentralist political process. It was also unviolent, until a then foreign unit of troops were told to keep their presence-- in a country that had asked them to leave.


Amen. I was just about to say that exact thing.

The Confederates weren't traitors. Just very, very unwise in fighting a war against a nation more economically capable. I have always thought that the generals who fought for the Confederates were more tactically capable, but lacking in materials.

Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:46 am
by Mistelten
I actually saw the end of Shu compared to the Confederacy on some site years ago. It said that they had the will to fight, just not the resources.
Anyways, I don't have disrespect for any side that fought in that war. I'm not genealogy nut, but I can trace my immediate lineage to both sides, including my great great grandfather(with my same surname) to a specific battle(in which he died).
Even though I think he should have withdrawn his troops from Ft. Sumter, I do respect Abe Lincoln as a great leader. I doubt many of the western States would have seceded so quickly if shots were never fired. Abe Lincoln did take on the catholic church in a court case and win, though. He has my undying respect for that, because he proved that it is no crime to have free choice of religion in America.
The sad thing now, is that the war is such a controversial topic, and less people know about their country's best generals(many of whom were outstanding men).

Re: History's Greatest Betrayal

Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:34 am
by ky9ersfan
Sima Yi, and Akechi Mitsuhide would rank right up there aswell.

Re: History's Greatest Betrayal

Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:59 pm
by Starscream
Wu Sangui was probably one of the most infamous traitors in China's history, having betrayed both the Ming and Qing dynasties in a single lifetime.

I'm not sure though, how the cost of his betrayal ranks with other traitors across the globe and the history of humanity. I reckon it would be great if there are some quantifiers to determine the impact of the betrayal e.g.
- number of lives lost
- amount of land or national asset lost
- number of years taken to recover from the losses made
- major events triggered that could have been avoided
etc.

Re: History's Greatest Betrayal

Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:38 pm
by Kayzr
Judas betraying Jesus to the authorities comes to mind.

Re: History's Greatest Betrayal

Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:50 pm
by musashika
Richard Coudenhove-kalergy is the most dreadful traitor and betrayer. He betrayed a whole continent (Europe) and a whole race of people - his own European people and it is ongoing right now!
In 1950 he instituted a plan since become known as The Coudenhove-kalergy Plan in which Europe would be flooded with what he called low intellect sub Saharan and Semitic-Asiatics to interbreed and produce a brown skinned peole, low intellect and easier to control and dominate. The KARLSPREIS AN DER AACHEN is given every year to Euro politicians who have controlled most to the achievement of this Plan.
A complete list of those who have won the prize may be found on the internet. For the Brits, these four people have been traitors and betrayers - Winston Churchill; Roy Jenkins; Ted Heath and Tony Blair. Angela Merkel won it in 2010.
It is the sole reason why mass migration to Europe is occurring today.
In his book «Praktischer Idealismus», Kalergi explains that the citizens of the future “United States of Europe” will not be the people of the Old Continent, but a new mixed breed, the products of thorough and widespread miscegenation. He states that the peoples of Europe should interbreed with Asians and other non-White races, to create a multiracial population, with not clear sense of tradition or identity and therefore easily controlled by the ruling elite.
The man of the future will be of mixed race. The races and classes of today will gradually disappear due to the elimination of space, time, and prejudice. The Eurasian-negroid race of the future, similar in appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the current diversity of peoples and the diversity of individuals. Instead of destroying European Judaism, Europe, against her will, refined and educated this people, driving them to their future status as a leading nation through this artificial evolutionary process. It’s not surprising that the people that escaped from the Ghetto-Prison, became the spiritual nobility of Europe. Thus, the compassionate care given by Europe created a new breed of aristocrats. This happened when the European feudal aristocracy crashed because of the emancipation of the Jews [due to the actions taken by the French Revolution]
Musashika.

Re: History's Greatest Betrayal

Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:42 pm
by SunXia
musashika wrote:Richard Coudenhove-kalergy is the most dreadful traitor and betrayer. He betrayed a whole continent (Europe) and a whole race of people - his own European people and it is ongoing right now!
In 1950 he instituted a plan since become known as The Coudenhove-kalergy Plan in which Europe would be flooded with what he called low intellect sub Saharan and Semitic-Asiatics to interbreed and produce a brown skinned peole, low intellect and easier to control and dominate. The KARLSPREIS AN DER AACHEN is given every year to Euro politicians who have controlled most to the achievement of this Plan.


Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi was a traitor?? Sorry what?? He betrayed people because of his ideology of European integration and unification?? I'm not quite sure how he's betraying people when during his lifetime, Europe was extremely divided, you know two massive, devastating wars that became global wars come to mind immediately!! Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi didn't really hold any power to do anything, sure he promoted an ideology but people do that all the time, but he didn't hold office at the head of any government to take action so I don't see how he did anything you are claiming he did.

Re: History's Greatest Betrayal

Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:55 pm
by musashika
I would imagine that the existence of the Karlspreis is proof enough that he did something. His role is as originator and disseminator of the whole rotten business. Can culpability be more certain? His intentions are plainly stated, are they not?
You seem rather more concerned at the possibly faulty attribution of an offence than in the offence itself. It would seem that this incredible plan is of less moment to you than the defence of the planner and the need to identify the exact role he plays. I find that rather sanguine for such a revelation, but no doubt you are concerned about fair play being done.

Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi was a traitor?? Sorry what?? He betrayed people because of his ideology of European integration and unification?? I'm not quite sure how he's betraying people when during his lifetime, Europe was extremely divided, you know two massive, devastating wars that became global wars come to mind immediately!! Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi didn't really hold any power to do anything, sure he promoted an ideology but people do that all the time, but he didn't hold office at the head of any government to take action so I don't see how he did anything you are claiming he did.


European integration is not what he was doing. He was mixing different races in a huge eugenics action to produce a human he approved of. Arrogant is not the word. Self-appointed God-like is closer. This intermixing was always going to be violent.

Any creative person will tell you that the idea is the valuable thing. Anyone can paint a Mona Lisa. Anyone can build a car, or make a television. It is the idea, the ideology, which is the be all and end all. Without him there would be no plan - he's the inventor and the others, the politicians, are just the operators putting it into action. And why even come up with an idea like that? The man is indefensible any way you look at it.
If the name of traitor is objectionable to you then choose another. But you can't deny what he did by disputing names.
Musashika.