Xun Yu's SGZ biography

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Xun Yu's SGZ biography

Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:04 pm

Deleted this draft; see the version on the next page or the final product at http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/xunyu.php -- LW
Last edited by Lady Wu on Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:00 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Xun Yu's SGZ biography

Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:22 pm

Lady Wu wrote:He had eight sons, who were know as the “Eight Dragons”.

known

Lady Wu wrote:Thus he abandoned his post, and after returning home, he said to the elders, “Yingchuan is a battleground all around. Once the realm fall into chaos, this is the place for warfare. We should all leave here at once—do not linger!”

1) falls
2) Should this be "will be"?

Lady Wu wrote:However, his fellow villagers hesistated in following, since they loved their land.

hesitated

Lady Wu wrote:Around that time, Han Fu, Protector of Jizhou, who was from the same commandery, sent a cavalry unit off to take in the emperor.

Off isn't necessary--it's kind of muddy so close to "in".

Lady Wu wrote:Xun Yu figured thatYuan Shao would be unable to achieve great things.

Should be two words.

Lady Wu wrote:Therefore, in the second year of the Chuping reign (AD 191), when the Great Progenitor [Cao Cao] was in Dongjun serving as General who Manifests Might, Xun Yu left Yuan Shao for him.

Is this really in there, or should it be in editorial brackets (i.e. [])?

Lady Wu wrote:Most of Xun Yu’s fellow villages who remained home were killed.

villagers

Lady Wu wrote:In the next year, the Great Progenitor was made designated Protector of Yanzhou, and afterwards he became General who Guards the East.

Redundant words.

Lady Wu wrote:In the first year of the Xingping reign (AD 194), the Great Progenitor attacked Tao Qian, and left him behind to be in charge of domestic affairs.

1) See above.
2) I assume this means Xun Yu, but the structure of the sentence makes it look like Tao Qian. It would be ok to use Xun Yu's name here.

Lady Wu wrote:It happened that Zhang Miao and Chen Gong rebelled in Yanzhou and welcomed Lü Bu in secretly.

Either "welcomed Lü Bu in secrecy" or "welcomed Lü Bu secretly".

Lady Wu wrote:Everyone did not know what to make of this.

Kind of awkward; consider "No one knew what to make of this."

Lady Wu wrote:By that time, all the cities of Yanzhou have already allied with Lü Bu.

had

Lady Wu wrote:Should you go, your life will be endangered.

I'm pretty sure this should be "would".

To be continued...
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:25 pm

Edited out; see first message
Last edited by Lady Wu on Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Xun Yu's SGZ biography

Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:51 pm

[SimulEDIT: This is still notes for Part I of your bio. Part II coming soon.]

Lady Wu wrote:Xun Yu replied, “Guo Gong had not been a close friend with Zhang Miao and the others.

has

Lady Wu wrote:As a result, he kept all three cities were safe in the Great Progenitor’s absence.

Should either be "he kept all three cities safe" or "all three cities were safe".

Lady Wu wrote:In the summer of the second year (AD 195), the Great Progenitor garrisoned at Chengshi.

See above.

Lady Wu wrote:--both were able to conquere the world because of the solidity of their powerbases.

conquer

Lady Wu wrote:When you go pacify the troubled lands in Shandong, all the commoners welcomed you with all their hearts.

Tense agreement. Should be either "When you went... welcomed" or "When you do... will welcome".

Lady Wu wrote:Since all of them in the east are harvesting the grains already, [by the time we get there, ] they would be waiting for you behind strong walls and cleared fields.

Extra space.

Lady Wu wrote:In no fewer then ten days, even an army of a hundred thousand would find itself in straits (1).

than

Lady Wu wrote:The last time when we attacked Xuzhou, we manifested our might and punished them heavily (2), The younger generation now,

1) "when" unnecessary
2) comma should be a period

Lady Wu wrote:Lü Bu was defeated and forced to fell, and Yanzhou was pacified.

I'm not sure of the intended sense of this phrase.

Lady Wu wrote:(II)Guanzhong refers to the lands within the four Passes, in what is today’s Shaanxi province.
(III) Henei refers to the lands north of the Yellow River.

1) No spaces?
2) Two spaces? Be consistent! ;)


Lady Wu wrote:In the first year of Jian’an (AD 196), the Great Progenitor defeated the Yellow Turbans.

See above.

Lady Wu wrote:Some said that the Shandong area is still in turmoil, and in addition, Han Xian and Yang Feng, who have recently brought the Son of Heaven back to Luoyang, would be hard to overcome since they could ally withe Zhang Yang in the north.

1) was
2) had
3) with

Lady Wu wrote:You have always shown aspiration to bring order to the realm.

Consider simply "aspired".

Lady Wu wrote:Your patronage of righteous men in order to attract talents [to your service] will be in accord with the way of great benevolence.Though there should be treasonous men in the world, it is clear that they would not be able to hinder us.

Needs a space after the period.

Lady Wu wrote:The emperor appointed the Great Progenitor as General-in-Chief, and promoted Xun Yu to be Imperial Counsellor and Chief of the Imperial Secretariat.

extra space between words

Lady Wu wrote:Before this, Xun Yu had recommended various strategists, including Xi Zhicai.

extra space between words

Lady Wu wrote:Ever since the Great Progenitor had brought the emperor into his power, Yuan Shao bore a grudge against him.

not really needed

Lady Wu wrote:Finding out that Zhang Xiu had defeated the Great Progenitor at Wan, Yuan Shao’s arrogance grew, and wrote an extremely rude letter to the Great Progenitor.

1) Tense makes things awkward here. Consider "When he found out that"
2) Subject-verb agreement. Yuan Shao's arrogance wrote the letter?

Lady Wu wrote:The Great Progenitor was infuriated, and behaved out of his way in his daily activities.

I know what you mean, but this doesn't really fit into the English idiom, where you "go out of your way" for someone.

Lady Wu wrote:Everyone had thought that it was due to his having lost to Zhang Xiu.

Again, not really necessary. Past tense is good enough for this stuff, unless something in the text explicitly indicates otherwise.

Lady Wu wrote:Xun Yu said, “When one examines the tales of success and failure in history, one finds that should one have talented men to help him, though he be weak at first, he will become strong; should one does not employ men properly, though he be strong at first, he will become weak.

"does" is not necessary here

Lady Wu wrote:Yuan Shao hesitates and is indecisive, and lacks initiative; you are decisive and can act promptly according to the situation—this is your superiority in policy.

extra space between words

Lady Wu wrote:you are careful and frugal and yet generous with those who with great achievements, thus you have in your employment loyal, upright, efficient, and honest me—this is your superiority in moral virtues.

1) I don't quite understand, so I assume the "who" is superfluous.
2) Was Xun Yu being cocky, or should that be "men"? :)

Lady Wu wrote:When you support the emperor with these four superiorities, upholding honour and waging war against the evil, who will not follow your banner?

This is just my own idea of artistic balance, but I think using "the evil" only works well when it is used in conjunction with "the" something else (i.e. "the good and the evil"). Where the previous item is simply "honour", I think simply "evil" would read better. Another option would be "upholding the honorable and waging war against the evil".
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:25 am

All fixed (in my private copy).

Thanks.
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Many thanks Lady Wu

Unread postby ZhangBaihu » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:37 am

Wow this is awesome. Thanks for sharing this with us Lady Wu.

From my own uncultured view, the SGZ bio seems to coincide for the most part with the SGYY's depiction of Xun Yu. I find it interesting that in the SGZ Xun Yu illustrates 4 superiorities Cao Cao has over Yuan Shao, whereas in the SGYY it is Guo Jia who goes into this discussion with his 10 superiorities of Cao Cao.

Xun Yu was really instrumental in establishing Cao Cao's hegemony over China, continuing on into the Wei and Jin dynasties. Yet he doesn't seem to get the appropriate amount of credit.
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:12 am

Good show Lady Wu! It's about time we saw the Wenruo Man's bio translated! Good work! Looking forward to Part II!
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Re: Many thanks Lady Wu

Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:15 pm

ZhangBaihu wrote:Wow this is awesome. Thanks for sharing this with us Lady Wu.

From my own uncultured view, the SGZ bio seems to coincide for the most part with the SGYY's depiction of Xun Yu. I find it interesting that in the SGZ Xun Yu illustrates 4 superiorities Cao Cao has over Yuan Shao, whereas in the SGYY it is Guo Jia who goes into this discussion with his 10 superiorities of Cao Cao.

Xun Yu was really instrumental in establishing Cao Cao's hegemony over China, continuing on into the Wei and Jin dynasties. Yet he doesn't seem to get the appropriate amount of credit.

You're welcome! :D

I was surprised, too, to see "Guo Jia's 10 superiorities" be actually Xun Yu's. I remembered that part in the novel, but forgot who said it; after searching for it in the novel I was pretty shocked. One wonders why the lines were given to Guo Jia rather than Xun Yu (was Luo Guanzhong intentionally trying to play down Xun Yu but make Guo Jia look better?).

PS: I have a slight problem here. At the end of the bio, the names of Xun Wenruo's descendents are listed. The problem is that Xun Yu (Wenruo) [彧] had a son called Xun Yu [俁], who had a son called Xun Yu [寓], who had a son called Xun Yu [羽]!!!!!!!!

How should I note this in the text?!
Last edited by Lady Wu on Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Many thanks Lady Wu

Unread postby James » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:28 pm

Lady Wu wrote:[...] (was Luo Guanzhong intentionally trying to play down Xun Yu but make Guo Jia look better?).

I personally think Luo Guanzhong tried very hard to endear Guo Jia to the reader, and went out of his way to present him as one of Cao Cao’s finest advisors (if not his best). It makes sense considering his death in the story while Cao Cao campaigns north of China. All things considered, I’d have to agree that was LGZ’s reason.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:53 pm

Cool beans, more bios to read; thanks.

As for the multiple Xun Yus, does the text give style names for them? If not, maybe the character should be included in parentheses following the Yu or else the main definition that character ordinarily carries.

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