Xun Yu's SGZ biography

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Unread postby Morg » Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:28 pm

Lady Wu wrote:Wow, thanks Morg. How can I ever repay this favour? (Yeah, I know I should go read your bios and reciprocate the kindness, but heh...:oops: )

You've agreed to translate Dong Zhuo's SGZ bio, so that will do nicely (I can then write my historical essay 'Dong Zhuo: Man From the Manger - Horsebreeder of Chaos' :lol: ). Besides, it was a welcome break from reading about the battle at Tong Gate for the 6th time in 3 weeks :roll:


I've made all the suggested changes. I'm confused about the dash issue, though. I had always put a space on either side -- like that -- but Kong Wen had told me at some point that there are no spaces (or did I misunderstand you, Master Kong?).

When we train secretaries in work, it is as I have described so this confused me. However, I've looked this up now and...it seems to be a British thing :oops: In British grammer, there should be a space before and after the dash, whereas in US (and presumably Canadian) grammer, there are no spaces.

My bad.


One of these days I'll learn how to spell "beseiged".. urm.. I mean "besieged"...

'I' before 'E', except after 'C' ;)


PS: about the (?) you see--do you have Chinese language support? Those show up as characters on my computer. I had to include them because of the Xun Yu problem I mentioned earlier on...

Aha! To be able to proof-read the bio, I had to save it as a plain text file so that I could access it in work, which then eliminated all unicode values. Usually that puts in those box things instead of the Hanzi, but in this case it must have used question marks. Makes sense now, my apologies for any confusion.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:03 pm

According to the Modern Language Association and Oxford English, dashes are connected to the words--just like this. Dashes are different from hypens. It may not be the difference between a British and North American idiom, though, because there are many different styles. MLA is what is normally used in academia, but there is also the Americal Physology Association format (I am not sure how they treat dashes), as well as various "business" formats (ditto).

So I just always use dashes as indicated above--no spaces between the punctuation and the word. After all, we don't put spaces between words and commas , or between words and end-marks !

:)
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:39 am

But you do put a space after fullstops,commas,question marks,exclaimation marks, etc.,I hope.

Unless you are Exar Kun. :P

Morg: the "i before e except after c" rule is wierd. :wink:
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Unread postby James » Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:25 am

Lady Wu wrote:I've made all the suggested changes. I'm confused about the dash issue, though. [...]

I can answer the question about the dashes. The proper dash to use in this instance is the em dash (—), and the em dash is generally used without any spaces at all—like this. In proper typography there is a much smaller space character which is used before and after the dash, but that character is not available in virtually any environment other than print, and certainly not on the internet with browser’s current implementations of Unicode, and poor character support among freeware fonts.

Neither usage is technically correct, though, without this special space character. This is one of those things which is passed down to the author to make a personal decision on. The function of the em dash, in this use, is to guide the reader to the next part of the sentence in a fluid way, without generating the emphasis and surprise that a semicolon induces. Look at the way in which you are handling the dash and decide how well it serves that purpose in the form you are used to, then compare it to the other form, then go with what feels right.

I always use the em dash myself—and in exactly this way; no spaces. It is properly supported on the Internet and in every other environment I’ve ever encountered, the exception being plain text documents. Before I started using the em dash I used an en dash (–) with a space on either side – like so. This is the other popular alternative to the method mentioned above (virtually nobody uses an em dash with spaces at the same time). When I use two hyphens, as I do in text documents, I enter them like you do, Lady Wu -- like so.

The en dash (which is a dash the length of a ‘n’ character):
Typing in Windows: Alt + 0150
Typing in Macintosh: Alt + -
Decimal Unicode value: 8211

The em dash (which is a dash the length of a ‘m’ character):
Typing in Windows: Alt + 0151
Typing in Macintosh: Alt + Shift + -
Decimal Unicode value: 8212
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:30 pm

I always use a single dash consisting of the minus sign - like so - which is actually even smaller than the en dash, with spaces around it.

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Unread postby James » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:26 pm

Good heavens that one was long:
http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/xunyu.php
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:48 pm

I can't find the thread where we were discussing the appearance of annotations, so I'll hijack my own thread.

Xun Yu, styled Wenruo, was a man from Yinghang in Yingchuan. His grandfather, Xun Shu, styled Jihe, was Prefect of Langling. During the reigns of Emperors Xun and Huan of Han, he was famous through the land. He had eight sons, who were known as the “Eight Dragons”. Xun Yu’s father, Xun Gun, served as Chancellor of Jinan, and his uncle Xun Shuang was Grand Minister of Works (1).

When Xun Yu was a young man, He Yu of Nanyang took him to be an extraordinary person, and said of him, “He is one who may aid a hegemon!”(2)

In the first year of Yonghan [AD 189], Xun Yu was recommended as Filial and Incorrupt, and appointed Prefect of the Palace Guards (V).


This is how it shows on the page. It seems a little odd for the author's note to start at (V), doesn't it? (Notes (I) to (IV) are embedded in the Pei notes.) Since we can hide the notes now, it's probably unnecessary to number them. What if we use * or something to indicate a note instead?
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Unread postby James » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:56 pm

Lady Wu wrote:This is how it shows on the page. It seems a little odd for the author's note to start at (V), doesn't it? (Notes (I) to (IV) are embedded in the Pei notes.) Since we can hide the notes now, it's probably unnecessary to number them. What if we use * or something to indicate a note instead?

Each has to have its own unique name for the system I have in place, but it would be possible to change it. Perhaps something like 1a, 1b, etc. I’m not completely sure what would be best. Personally, I think the odd jump in translator note numerals isn't that strange as it is sequential, people just have to read the Pei notes. Also, most people who read some of the notes, will quickly figure out how the system works. Feedback, anyone?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:57 pm

James wrote:When I use two hyphens, as I do in text documents, I enter them like you do, Lady Wu -- like so.

Your information is sound up until this point, if I may say so without offending. The use of two hypens is meant as a stand-in for the em-dash (which is why most word processors will automatically convert two hypens not surrounded by spaces into em-dashes). As such, in text documents, the hypens (sub. em-dash) should be typed without spaces separating them from the surrounding words. In my makey-sensey opinion.
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Unread postby James » Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:00 pm

Kong Wen wrote:Your information is sound up until this point, if I may say so without offending. The use of two hypens is meant as a stand-in for the em-dash (which is why most word processors will automatically convert two hypens not surrounded by spaces into em-dashes). As such, in text documents, the hypens (sub. em-dash) should be typed without spaces separating them from the surrounding words. In my makey-sensey opinion.

Your advice, too, is sound. It is a habit, for me, that probably lingers from actually typing on a typewriter, like using two spaces after a sentence, another thing that should not be done anymore except when using a fixed-width font. I still do that now without thinking. I personally just suggest getting used to typing the actual em dash—it comes naturally once you use it for a while.
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