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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:56 pm

Lady Wu wrote:However, note the 所 in the phrase--a passive marker if I'm not mistaken. I'm still unsure I want to take the 歸 part (sorry for switching traditional/simplified characters) as "reinforcements", since none of Liu Bei's men was issued forth from that place (and need to *return*). I dunno though.


Well, it could be a 以...所 construction which would be passive, but how I'm reading it as designating the location of the object of 以, 以 being used here as a coverb, such that waiting and delaying a while longer requires the latter condition - that they be preparing for the arrival of reinforcements - in order to make it other than a fool's decision, because Lu Meng is shortly going to kill them all. In this case, the 所 designates 归者as the object of 以, with 所 indicating the location - the reinforcements right here as opposed to those that might arrive for the purpose of repulsing the invasion in general.

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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:04 am

The first set of characters: 卑曲苦志,如此之勤也: from Sun Sheng I'm pretty sure should be: "Over even the smallest harm (to his men) he would suffer in kind, and thusly they were diligent(in his service)." You could also render "suffer in kind" as "vicariously suffer" but I didn't like that.

Edit: Second set of characters from Sun Sheng: 易简而其亲可久,体全而其功可大: I think should be: "Attention to the small things will earn one the approval of one's contemporaries, however full completeness (*) requires the greatest of accomplishments." I'm sure you've noticed there are other alternatives; it's obviously a coordinate verb construction, but you could also say something like: "Kindness/sympathy will distinguish one with respect to one's contemporaries, but a complete(government) will measure one with the greatest of achievers." From there you can start mixing and matching, and my head hurts from all the insanity. I think my first option, above, is the best choice, though. The * denotes that I know what 体全 is trying to say but I'm having trouble with my English right now.


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Last edited by Liu Yuante on Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:07 am

LiuYuanTe wrote:The first set of characters: 卑曲苦志,如此之勤也: from Sun Sheng I'm pretty sure should be: "Over even the smallest harm (to his men) he would suffer in kind, and thusly they were diligent(in his service)." You could also render "suffer in kind" as "vicariously suffer" but I didn't like that.

卑曲 I read as "humble", and 苦志 would be something like "taxing his mind". I don't know how to put them into English, though. 勤 I'm sure refers to Sun Quan. :?
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:14 am

Well, I had entertained the possibility of it referring to Sun Quan but dismissed it. My idea was "He was of humble bent, and hard/disciplined will, and thusly was industrious/diligent." I will take your word for it that that character refers to Sun Quan; mayhaps if we modify my rendering, you could say "Over the smallest harm to his men he would suffer in kind, and thusly was he attentive to them."

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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:22 am

I guess this is why I decided to interpret it the other way. The text has been going on and on about what Sun Quan did for his subordinates. The line 卑曲苦志,如此之勤也 I would translate as "his 卑曲苦志 is 勤 in this way (如此)."

PS: I'm going to suggest a slight revision to your translation of the last line: "Should one simplify, he will enjoy long-lasting good relations; Should one pay attention (体) to the big picture (全), he will achieve great things."

Thanks for that translation. Somehow my brain shut down when it got to that line, and I just wanted to post the rest of the translation rather than maul at it for another few days.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:38 am

Lady Wu wrote:I guess this is why I decided to interpret it the other way. The text has been going on and on about what Sun Quan did for his subordinates. The line 卑曲苦志,如此之勤也 I would translate as "his 卑曲苦志 is 勤 in this way (如此)."


Well, oddly enough that's why I chose my way instead of it being about Sun Quan's humility and hard will; however on looking at it again I made a mistake in assuming that being about his concern for them necessitated 勤 not referring to him. I'm reading it as "his 卑曲苦志 thusly (如此)identifies him as (也) of them (之) attentive/diligent (勤).

Thanks for that translation. Somehow my brain shut down when it got to that line, and I just wanted to post the rest of the translation rather than maul at it for another few days.


You're welcome; this is good practice for me, anyway.

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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:43 am

LiuYuanTe wrote:Well, oddly enough that's why I chose my way instead of it being about Sun Quan's humility and hard will; however on looking at it again I made a mistake in assuming that being about his concern for them necessitated 勤 not referring to him. I'm reading it as "his 卑曲苦志 thusly (如此)identifies him as (也) of them (之) attentive/diligent (勤).

I'm not sure if this is the common case (I hope Lady Wu could verify), but I always get the feeling that most classical (pre-Sui) Chinese text favors four characters groups, which is why I always read in fours. E.g. 待其所歸_者, 如此之勤_也, instead of having irregular clusters of phrases here and there, the so-called 之乎者也 modifies everything before it.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:55 am

The 4-character grouping is a good point--it is indeed the preferred metrical grouping in pre-Early Modern Chinese texts.

An even stronger argument for 如此之勤也 to be referring to Sun Quan is that 之 is not used as a subject pronoun, so it can't meant "[thus] they were diligent". Also, even though Classical Chinese allows a good level of pronoun omission and subject changes, usually there are hints when the subject/topic is changed. In order to express what you had a couple of posts back, I would say:

卑曲苦志,因而得其將士之勤。
卑曲苦志,將士亦為之効勤。

Thinking about it again, I'd take 勤 to mean "putting in a lot of effort" rather than plain old "diligent", since that wouldn't make sense in English.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:43 am

Seven at One Stroke wrote:I'm not sure if this is the common case (I hope Lady Wu could verify), but I always get the feeling that most classical (pre-Sui) Chinese text favors four characters groups, which is why I always read in fours. E.g. 待其所歸_者, 如此之勤_也, instead of having irregular clusters of phrases here and there, the so-called 之乎者也 modifies everything before it.


Good point; in my explanation though I was just putting it into English word order - I could just as easily say: "in this way of them attentive he should be considered as." and then it's a 4 character block followed by 'ye' with Sun Quan as the one being referred to.

LadyWu wrote:An even stronger argument for 如此之勤也 to be referring to Sun Quan is that 之 is not used as a subject pronoun, so it can't meant "[thus] they were diligent". Also, even though Classical Chinese allows a good level of pronoun omission and subject changes, usually there are hints when the subject/topic is changed. In order to express what you had a couple of posts back, I would say:

卑曲苦志,因而得其將士之勤。
卑曲苦志,將士亦為之効勤.


Noted. :)

LadyWu wrote:Thinking about it again, I'd take 勤 to mean "putting in a lot of effort" rather than plain old "diligent", since that wouldn't make sense in English.


Well, if you are going with the 'humble' version for the first half, I'd say industrious. For the 'concerned' version I think you're right.

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Unread postby Morg » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:59 am

Lu Meng corrections part 2


When Lü Meng arrived at Xunyang, he hid his crack troops in small boats disguised as merchants, and had men in commoner dress row the boats day and night up the river toward the guardposts Guan Yu set up on the banks of the river.

Should be two words. Also, this sentence could possibly be split into two.


History of Wu: General Shi Ren was holding them off at Gong’an. Lü Meng ordered Yu Fan to pursuade him [to surrender].

Persuade.


Once the roads are blocked, you will become geogrpahically cut off from the rest of the state.

Geographically.


There was a soldier under Lü Meng’s own command, a man from Runan, who took a rainshawl from a peasant household in order to cover the state-issued armour.

Should be two words.


Therefore, Guan Yu’s officiers and soldiers lost the will to fight, and once Sun Quan approached, Guan Yu fled to Mai city, knowing that he had no more support.

Officers.


However, fearing that he would disturb him, he punched a hole on a wall and watched Lü Meng through it from outside.

Should that be 'in'?


When he saw that he could eat a bit of food, Sun Quan would become glad, and spoke happily to his attendents.

Attendants.


Before his death, Lü meng had carefully stored all the gold and treasures ever awarded to him, and ordered that, on the day of his death, the keeper of the store were to return all of it to the state.

The 'm' needs to be capitalised.


Thus he increased the number of Lü Meng’s drummers and horn-blowers, both mounted and unmounted, personally picked out officers to add to the Office of the General of Tiger Might, and granted him the banners and honours of the two commanderies of Nanjun and Lujiang

Another large sentence that could possibly do with being split in two.


Once Sun Quan was having a discussion with Lu Xun about Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Lü meng.

Initial capital again.


Sun Quan said, “Gongjin was bold and dashing, and both in courage and intelligence was not equalled by any other.

Equaled.


Although he later pursuaded me to lend land to Xuande, which was a shortcoming of his, it’s not enough to overshadow the two great points about him.

Persuaded.


The Duke of Zhou (4) said to never require anyone to completely possess all strengths and abilitiese, and so I forget about his shortcomings and value his strengths, often comparing him to Deng Yu(5).

Abilities.


‘At the beginning of empire-building, there are always those whom one want to get rid of.

Should be 'wants'.


(3) Zhang Yi and Su Qin were two renowned lobbyists of the Warring States period. One drew up plans for the state of Qin to annex the other six states, and the other pursuaded the six states to unite against Qin’s aggression. Together, their plans shaped the political environment of the later Warring States.

Persuaded.

I apologise for having to do the Lu Meng corrections in two posts but it couldn't be avoided.

Again, excellent work Lady Wu.

EDIT: Please ignore all references to defence and defences in the last post. Defences is indeed correct, it is the international spelling. My apologies for any confusion caused.
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