the battles of Yiling & HeFei in 214 AD

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the battles of Yiling & HeFei in 214 AD

Unread postby Rommel » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:40 pm

I hate this job. It wont let me finish typing. What kind of boss is he :lol:

Battle of YiLing: After Liu Bei learned about Guan Yu’s death he planned an attack on Wu. Based on the author Liu Bei wasn’t mad at Guan Yu’s death he was angry that Wu dared to attack Shu. Liu Bei refused to listen to his generals’ warning including Zhao Yun who was afraid that such attack will break the alliance with Wu. No great general but Zhang Fei wanted to go with Liu Bei to attack Wu. Zhang Fei was killed by his subordinates in Ba Xi however. Finally Liu Bei led 40,000 men (not 750,000) to attack Wu. Sun Quan tried to make peace with Liu Bei but was turned down. He thus sent a letter to Wei to say something like willing to be under Wei’s rule to avoid fighting at two fronts. He dispatched 50,000 men under Lu Xun’s command to face Liu Bei in YiLing. When Cao Pi heard about Liu Bei binding camps(?) for 700 li(s), he laughed and said that Liu Bei didn’t know how to fight a battle and predicted Liu Bei’s failure. Lu Xun used another fire attack (Wu’s best tactic, haha) to defeat Liu Bei. Huang Quan had no where to run but surrendered to Wei. After Liu Bei fled to BaiDi, his generals suggested to kill Huang Quan’s mother and the rest of his family. Liu Bei said that the loss was his fault not Huang Quan’s and Huang Quan’s family was saved.

Battle of HeFei in 214 A.D: Cao Cao went to attack Zhang Lu in Han Zhong. Before he left he sent a letter to Zhang Liao, who was in charge the defense in HeFei. In the letter, Cao Cao predicted that if he went to attack Zhang Lu, Sun Quan must attack HeFei. If the army was led by Sun Quan, said Cao Cao, Zhang Liao and Lee Dian could go out to counterattack while Yue Jin stayed inside the castle to defend. Cao Cao said that with Zhang Liao’s bravery and Yue Jin’s cool head they would be able to defeat Sun Quan. After Cao Cao’s army marched westward Sun Quan summoned 100,000 men to attack HeFei. Cao Cao army had only 7000 deployed around Hefei. Following the order of CaoCao’s letter, Zhang Liao chose 800 elite soldiers. Drinking some wine Zhang Liao led the charge toward Wu’s army. Zhang Liao fought fiercely with his men. Even though Sun Quan ordered to surround this few men Zhang Liao almost got to Sun Quan for few times. Later Sun Quan saw that he couldn’t win then retreated back to Wu. No plague was mentioned in this battle but the author did point out that a plague occurred in another Wu’s attack on HeFei in 253 AD. It was commanded by Zhuge Luo. Plague wiped out most of his men and forced him to retreat prematurely.
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Re: the battles of Yiling & HeFei in 214 AD

Unread postby Erdrick » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:52 pm

Rommel wrote:I hate this job. It wont let me finish typing. What kind of boss is he :lol:

Battle of YiLing: After Liu Bei learned about Guan Yu’s death he planned an attack on Wu. Based on the author Liu Bei wasn’t mad at Guan Yu’s death he was angry that Wu dared to attack Shu.



Out of curiousity, since you note the historical numbers of troops used in Yiling, where did you get the information about Liu Bei's reasons? LB's SGZ bio states that he was angry with Wu for killing Guan Yu, and therefore proposed the expedition against Sun Quan.
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Unread postby dengai » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:03 pm

Where can I find Liu Bei's SGZ bio?

Mod Edit (Cao Zhi): Please use proper grammar and capitalization when posting here. You can find Liu Bei's bio on KMA at www.kongming.net.
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Unread postby Rommel » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:11 pm

I got this info from a book called SanGuoShi (history of TK) published by People's publisher in Beijing in 1997. The author used a lot of words from SGZ, ZZTJ, and QinHanShi (history of Qin & Han dynasties) to back up his statements. I, just like you, thought that Liu Bei's attack on Wu was a revenge on Guan Yu's death. The author argued that even the death of Liu Bei's most favorite generals Fa Zheng and Pang Tong Liu Bei was just sorrow & no extreme reaction. Of course I was translating author's words I didn't do any research. All the work(s) belong to that author.
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yo

Unread postby Da_Chicago_Jigalo » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:30 pm

"Finally Liu Bei led 40,000 men (not 750,000) to attack Wu."/
"He dispatched 50,000 men under Lu Xun’s command to face Liu Bei in YiLing."


WTF. Really? I always thought that Liu Bei had the larger army. Now I can see how Lu Xun won. More troops, fighting on home ground, and an enemy who kinda charged into battle blindly....
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:03 pm

Actually, Liu Bei might have slightly more troops than Wu, but not by a whole lot. Although he mobilized a lot more men (150k upward), not all of them arrived at Yiling; his supply lines were really stretched out and he left men at various points for relaying supplies and information. Liu Bei and Lu Xun each had about 50k at Yiling, though scholars differ on the exact numbers (none of the biographies are specific about it). Sun Quan and Zhuge Jin had 100k in reinforcements, though they were not used in the battle at all.

Though the death of Guan Yu was one of the reasons that prompted Liu Bei to action (Liu Ye's SGZ bio also pointed that out), it was not a mad headlong rush into battle, but a well-planned, premeditated action (it took him a year before he left Chengdu). Liu Ye's analysis was that though Shu was a small state, Liu Bei wished to show off his might and let people know not to walk over him, so he had no choice but to attack Wu at that point.

Here's another thread on Yiling: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=3239

Rommel, who's the author of that book, just out of curiousity? (Read: *Must possess all 3k-related books!*)
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Unread postby Rommel » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:14 pm

Sorry Lady Wu I read the book quickly in a bookstore in Chinatown I didn't get the author's name down. If you are interested I will go there again and get the name to you tomorrow :) . & thanx for u detailed info for the battle.
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Unread postby Erdrick » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:14 pm

dengai wrote:Where can I find Liu Bei's SGZ bio?

Mod Edit (Cao Zhi): Please use proper grammar and capitalization when posting here. You can find Liu Bei's bio on KMA at www.kongming.net.



On one of the other forums... You'd need Adobe Acrobat to open it, (and the password); and hopefully not treading on any toes by posting the link, but here:

http://www.3kingdoms.net/forum/showthre ... eadid=9127

Lady Wu wrote:(Read: *Must possess all 3k-related books!*)



Someone's as bad as I am... :roll: :shock: :D (Although I've started the printing out of old articles too... oh, the trees!) You ever dug up Cao Zhi, Life of a Princely Poet yet?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:23 pm

Erdrick wrote:Someone's as bad as I am... :roll: :shock: :D (Although I've started the printing out of old articles too... oh, the trees!) You ever dug up Cao Zhi, Life of a Princely Poet yet?

No, though I do own the "Complete Works of Cao Zhi" in hardcover. :wink:

Rommel: Thanks for sharing that info from the book! What do you think about the author's description of the battles?
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Unread postby Rommel » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:45 pm

The author quoted a lot from the old books. I am not good at ancient Chinese literature so I have difficulty to understand what they mean but I believe that the author shouldn't mis-interpret them to the readers :) Those battles weren't written in details. The author summarized each battle in a couple of pages. I am not a researcher so I can't tell if the descriptions are correct or not but I kinda believe that the numbers of soldiers involved in battle are evidently reliable :D . I have often doubted the huge number given in SGYY because it is hard for me to imagine offering supply to 1 millions of men in ancient time. Remember most of them were infantry and they had to march to battlefield by foot. It might take them months and you have to give them foods daily? Where did they get the food supply or other kinds of supply from in the late Han period, in which famines were commonplace? Other than this I found it interesting because the book gives different causes of wars and background, kinda.
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