What would have happened if Zhong Hui took Shu?

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What would have happened if Zhong Hui took Shu?

Unread postby master Zhou Tai » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:35 pm

as you remember after Shu had fallen to Wei/Jin,Jiang Wei was able to convince Hui that he should become his own power by taking the land of Shu, so what would have happened?
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Re: what would have happened if Zhong Hui did take Shu

Unread postby Stedfel » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:52 pm

master Zhou Tai wrote:as you remember after Shu had fallen to Wei/Jin,Jiang Wei was able to convince Hui that he should become his own power by taking the land of Shu, so what would have happened?


If Zhong Hui had taken Shu, Jiang Wei would have asked Liu Shan to return, which considering Liu Shan, I doubt he would want to leave Wei. If Shan had returned, it would have split the ranks, as it was obvious Zhong Hui wanted to be in control, and I seriously doubt Jiang Wei would let him. This would lead to a Yuan Tan/Shang incident, and Wei would have attacked during this time, regaining Shu. Of course, this is just my assumption.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:22 pm

I don't think that Liu Shan had left yet at that point. I think if Zhong Hui - who by my estimation seems to have been very prideful, to the point of doing ill-conceived things - had managed to gain the support of the Wei troops instead of getting himself and Jiang Wei killed, he would have been removed from power soon enough. The trick would be for Jiang Wei to remove the need for reliance on (what then would have been) the treacherous Wei soldiers and place power back in the hands of the military men of Shu. I also think Jiang Wei would have found a way to have Huang Hao punished under the auspices of Zhong Hui so as to take him out without incurring any potential disturbance to the court of Shu. Once Hui is gone, you either put Liu Shan back on the throne or, if he's gone already, you recall the elder of Liu Bei's other sons and place them on the throne.

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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:20 am

I beat if they did succeed, they would ally with Wu to attack Lou Xian, if they took Yongan, Lu Kang would betray and invade Shu, most likly succeding and then Wu would have Yizhou. Though I have a feeling Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui would be ok with this, rather staying as high ranking and respected generals of Wu, then rebels and prisoners in Wei.
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Unread postby dengai » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:01 pm

Zhong Hui would not call Shan back because he is ambitious.
He would probably declaire himself the emperor.
I don't see a point in this, everyone can copy it.
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Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:52 pm

PrimeMinister Bu Zhi wrote:I beat if they did succeed, they would ally with Wu to attack Lou Xian, if they took Yongan, Lu Kang would betray and invade Shu, most likly succeding and then Wu would have Yizhou. Though I have a feeling Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui would be ok with this, rather staying as high ranking and respected generals of Wu, then rebels and prisoners in Wei.


Historically, generals seemed to prefer surrender after losing an honorable fight rather than giving in to treachery. Guan Yu didn't react too well with Wu, for one, compared to his attitudes with Cao Cao when beaten.
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Unread postby Emperor Zhuge Liang » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:47 pm

Jaing Wei and Zhong Hui would eventually have argued becuase Jiang Wei wants to bring Liu Bei's family back whereas Zhong Hui would probably try and seize power for himself. Then Wei would have attacked and finished them off once and for all.
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Unread postby Rommel » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:31 pm

Were Wei army's family still living in Wei? If so why did Zhong Hui's soldiers support Zhong Hui to rebel? They had conquered Shu and were treated as something honored (if not being called heroes). Why did they risk their families' lives and ruining their reputation to follow a crazy general to rebel against their own emperor? I say that this "what if" situation would never succeed. The fact that the rebellion was crushed quickly and easily demonstrated that it gained little popularity among Wei army.
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Unread postby Lu Kang » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:54 am

I think that Zhong Hui would have to face the problem of having the northern portion of Yizhou secured by Wei soldiers, Now depending on who he got ot join him, he could end up with Yongzhou and parts of Liangzhou in his hand, having a much better position than LiU Shan was ever in. The attack was something like a 6 pronged attack with three major forces, and 3-4 minor forces. Hanzhong was secured by men like Hu Lie and Li Fu. If Zhong Hui could not secure their support, and certainly the support of Zhuge Xu, the inspector of Yongzhou he didn't stand much of a change. Now, if he could get all the attacking forces to join him, he games much of Yong and Liang because that's all the forces who were attacking. With this in his hands he could take Chang An. However, if he doesn't ally Wu he won't stand a change.

The real key factors is who he can get to join him.
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Unread postby Sora » Sun Dec 12, 2004 5:47 am

I highly doubt much would happen.

Considering that Jiang Wei and Zhong Hui were the only two people that knew about the plot until they decided to gain support, where would they have gotten enough decent officers from? From what I know, no officer of any real importance was asked to join them and you can't really run a campaign against a country with a bunch of soldiers and 2 leaders. Make some of the soldiers into leaders? I think reasons existed why they were soldiers and not leaders already.

Anyway, Wei had already won and taken the land. Trying to suddenly dash in, declare yourself ruler, and raise up a defense force before a reaction would almost certainly fail in any case.
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