What do you hate Liu Shan for the most?

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Which of these events makes you hate Liu Shan most?

His role at Dangyang
0
No votes
Being taken away by Lady Sun
0
No votes
Ruling Shu badly
17
30%
Listening to Huang Hao
16
29%
Surrender to Wei
9
16%
The Lord of Happiness "Crying Act"
6
11%
Other (Please specify)
8
14%
 
Total votes : 56

Unread postby Foif » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:37 pm

Antiochus wrote:I just hope that none of his ex followers were present. I am almost thankfull that heroes like Liao Hua could not hear something like that...


I know what you mean. Just imagine, following Shu all your life, then the ruler says screw it, Shu sucks and Wei will be better...
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Unread postby Lord Lu Xun » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:54 am

I don't really hate Liu Shan. Everyone seems to hate him, but they don't seem to remember that he managed to govern Shu for 40 years,although he is a bit dum.Still, he governed far longer than Liu Bei, who only governed for 3 years before he died. As for surrendering to Wei, there wasn't really much use of doing anything else, and if he surrendered he could live the rest of his life in relative happiness.
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Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:39 pm

He is too weak in leading the country, the same conditions that happen in later Han when Emperor Xian became puppet emperor under Cao Cao.
I think the difference is Liu Shan is not have the strong character like his father, its a vital point as a leader from one big kingdom. If you have a brilliant strategist, a fierce warrior, an excellent civil officer, but without one figures that can make them all work 100 % for you and for the country, they all useless. >.<
This is the point that Liu Shan didn't have, he is to idiot for the sake of Han.
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Unread postby Antiochus » Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:15 pm

I think the main problem would be that he became the emperor young while being under the "regency" of Zhuge Liang and never managed to get out of a pattern in which he was nothing but a symbolic leader.

Take Louis XIV as an example. He grew up as a child king while the effective power was in the hands of his chief minister, Mazarin (in several way a match for Kongming). The sole difference was that Louis managed to take the reings of power after Mazarin encouraged him to do so.

Maybe Zhuge Liang should have encouraged Liu Shan to take a more important leading role. Yet, it is also possible that he did not see the same potential in Liu Bei's son than Mazarin saw in Louis.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:23 am

Hate him for both reasons:

1. ruling Shu badly
2. listening to Huang Hao make it worse...

There's no denying that these two factors led to the fall of Wu...
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:53 pm

People always saw he governs not badly for a long time...
But I don't see how that can be true?
He didn't do anything during that time and only relied on Zhuge Liang and others. Whenever he did not listen to them something bad happened and after most had died, Shu was destroyed by him...

That clearly shows that he was a good for nothing person since the beginning.

Lonely_dragon wrote:Hate him for both reasons:

1. ruling Shu badly
2. listening to Huang Hao make it worse...

There's no denying that these two factors led to the fall of Wu...


Oh and Lonely_dragon is right, he even took Wu down with him. :roll:
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:40 am

Cao Shang Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and Lonely_dragon is right, he even took Wu down with him.


Umm... actually I mistyped it what I meant is Liu Shan Makes Shu down with him I did it in my haste in typing... :oops:

However it is also true since the tripod has been broken Wu had little chance to hold out now that 2/3 of china was ruled by Wei/Jin... :lol:

please forgive my mistyping Cao Shang... But it is alright in the end...
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:57 am

Lonely_dragon wrote:
Cao Shang Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and Lonely_dragon is right, he even took Wu down with him.


Umm... actually I mistyped it what I meant is Liu Shan Makes Shu down with him I did it in my haste in typing... :oops:

However it is also true since the tripod has been broken Wu had little chance to hold out now that 2/3 of china was ruled by Wei/Jin... :lol:

please forgive my mistyping Cao Shang... But it is alright in the end...

;)

I thought it had been a mistake myself, but then why not use it to once advantage?
It still had truth in it. :)
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:43 am

He didn't do anything during that time and only relied on Zhuge Liang and others. Whenever he did not listen to them something bad happened and after most had died, Shu was destroyed by him...


but Liu Shan gave them a free hand and while far too free with amnesties over Fei Yi's own objections, I can't think of any other time he rejected their advice. Free hand however doesn't work when you have Jiang Wei and Chen Zhi around, that was his failure
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Unread postby Killerkid282 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:30 am

Lord Lu Xun wrote:I don't really hate Liu Shan. Everyone seems to hate him, but they don't seem to remember that he managed to govern Shu for 40 years,although he is a bit dum.Still, he governed far longer than Liu Bei, who only governed for 3 years before he died. As for surrendering to Wei, there wasn't really much use of doing anything else, and if he surrendered he could live the rest of his life in relative happiness.


How can we compare the likes of Liu Shan with his father Liu Bei,who did'nt govern his dynasty much longer yet did more contribution to the kingdom than his son contribution for the past 40 yrs.

Liu Shan being a 2nd generation ruler,he pretty much have everything for himself,his dynasty as already been establish...all he have to do now and then is fortify his domestics and conquer territories.

Whereas 1st generation ruler like Liu Bei,he started out as a nobody,he fought countless battles,suffering pain,deaths and misery to finally settling a foothold at Yi which he founded Shu.That is why his ruling never last long,by the time he founded his dynasty,how old was he? 57?

While Liu Shan who took the throne when he was 17(if im not mistaken) who spends his entire life in the imperial palace managed to govern Shu 40 years? of course he would last longer than Liu Bei.
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