Wei Yan

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:48 pm

Exar Kun wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Well considering that Gonsun Zan was a better military leader then Liu Bei it might have been interesting seeing him having a good stratagist


I'm waiting with breathless anticipation to see how exactly you go about proving this. :roll:

That statement is utter nonesense.If Gongsun Zan were really a cut above the rest he would have lasted as a warlord.


I never said he was a warlord i am talking about his military talent. He was famous for his battles and tactics against the northern barbarians. He was a good general but not a warlord. It is when he was in the warlord role his weakness came out and he failed. Liu Bei was a higher quality warlord and thus made smarter decisions. Gongsun Zan would have shown himself to be quite talented if he was serving someone instead of leading his own force.

Oh and why are we talking about these people when the thread is about Wei Yan? Lets focus back on the real topic.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2667
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Unread postby Shield of Rohan » Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:16 pm

LiuYuanTe wrote:And the fact that even Liu Bei couldn't ultimately prevail I think focuses some doubt on whether such an individual would have really kept the Ma or Gongsun Zan going.

Adrian


If you are talking about Liu Shan and Shu's fall, he and his court basically managed to undo what the great men had done to build up Shu. Can't really be blamed on the first generation. Gongsun Zan and Ma Teng were also much earlier at a time when the lords were weaker. Victory for Gongsun in the north under a great strategist would have put him in Yuan's position, save this time Cao would be opposed by a very different man and very different armies (which would include Liu Bei's band, who left after Gongsun's failures on the field against Yuan). I have no doubt Gongsun Zan would have reunified China had he beat Yuan Shao in the beginning with the help of a great warlord.

Ma Teng has a somewhat similar situation, as with the help of a good warlord he could have easily smashed the influence of lords but seemed kind of isolationist in the beginning and didn't care all that much about his influence. Ma Chao is a much different situation. His feats at Chang An showed he was more than a match for Wei in battle alone, but his defeat at Tong Gate showed that Wei was superior in strategy. A warlord would have been quite helpful to guide Ma Chao's fury at Tong Gate and beyond.

Back to Wei Yan :wink: ...
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded, what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
User avatar
Shield of Rohan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:48 pm
Location: Atlanta. No, scratch that: Utah.

Well...

Unread postby Waking Dragon » Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:56 pm

Wei Yan was a bit rebellious, but there was always a reason for those rebellious acts. Zhuge had made a remark to Liu Bei that Wei Yan would eventually become a threat to Shu, but Liu Bei did not listen to Zhuge and kept promoting Wei Yan. Wei Yan was frustrated you know. The fact that Zhuge kept disrespecting Wei Yan and thinking that he would rebel made those acts happen. It's a shame. If only they had respected Wei Yan and had used the warrior more...he would have contributed a much greater success for Shu. I don't blame Wei Yan for his rebellious acts, which eventually led to his death. I blame Zhuge. Wei Yan was a true warrior. God bless Wei Yan's soul.
"Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water." r.i.p legend...

Bruce Lee
User avatar
Waking Dragon
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1512
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:20 pm
Location: "Where the sun don't shine when she gone."

Re: Well...

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:13 am

Waking Dragon wrote:Wei Yan was a bit rebellious, but there was always a reason for those rebellious acts. Zhuge had made a remark to Liu Bei that Wei Yan would eventually become a threat to Shu, but Liu Bei did not listen to Zhuge and kept promoting Wei Yan. Wei Yan was frustrated you know. The fact that Zhuge kept disrespecting Wei Yan and thinking that he would rebel made those acts happen. It's a shame. If only they had respected Wei Yan and had used the warrior more...he would have contributed a much greater success for Shu. I don't blame Wei Yan for his rebellious acts, which eventually led to his death. I blame Zhuge. Wei Yan was a true warrior. God bless Wei Yan's soul.


The disrespect was only in the novel to help justify his rebellion. Wei Yan was very respected by everyone in Shu-Han.
LiuBeiwasGreat
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2667
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Well...

Unread postby White Horse General » Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:56 pm

Waking Dragon wrote:Wei Yan was a bit rebellious, but there was always a reason for those rebellious acts. Zhuge had made a remark to Liu Bei that Wei Yan would eventually become a threat to Shu, but Liu Bei did not listen to Zhuge and kept promoting Wei Yan. Wei Yan was frustrated you know. The fact that Zhuge kept disrespecting Wei Yan and thinking that he would rebel made those acts happen. It's a shame. If only they had respected Wei Yan and had used the warrior more...he would have contributed a much greater success for Shu. I don't blame Wei Yan for his rebellious acts, which eventually led to his death. I blame Zhuge. Wei Yan was a true warrior. God bless Wei Yan's soul.


Ah yes, it's because Zhuge Liang didn't like Wei Yan that pushed Wei Yan to betray his kingdom :roll: .

That's pretty illogical thinking. That's like saying if I stated I didn't like you you'd be justified in hacking this forum and ruining it. Wei Yan was an ambitious grunt; it's as simple as that. He wasn't brilliant, he was just good at doing grunt work and somehow got it into his head he was a master strategist too.
Sings we a dance of wolves;
Who smell fear and slay a coward.
Sings we a dance of man;
Who smells gold and slays his brother.
White Horse General
Master
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:31 pm
Location: My Snorlax ran away....

Re: Well...

Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:37 pm

Waking Dragon wrote:Wei Yan was a bit rebellious, but there was always a reason for those rebellious acts. Zhuge had made a remark to Liu Bei that Wei Yan would eventually become a threat to Shu, but Liu Bei did not listen to Zhuge and kept promoting Wei Yan. Wei Yan was frustrated you know. The fact that Zhuge kept disrespecting Wei Yan and thinking that he would rebel made those acts happen. It's a shame. If only they had respected Wei Yan and had used the warrior more...he would have contributed a much greater success for Shu. I don't blame Wei Yan for his rebellious acts, which eventually led to his death. I blame Zhuge. Wei Yan was a true warrior. God bless Wei Yan's soul.


Haha.Rubbish.
There's no historical proof that Zhuge Liang ever held Wei Yan with any kind of disdain.

And Wei Yan rebelling can never be attributed to Zhuge since not only was Zhuge dead but Wei Yan was rebelling against Liu Shan.And what did poor Liu Shan ever do to Wei Yan to deserve being betrayed?
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Sky Scorcher » Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:27 am

I think that Wei Yan knew that Liu Shan was a weak ruler, and decided that it wouldn't be wise to follow him any more.
User avatar
Sky Scorcher
Assistant
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:05 pm
Location: Somewhere between Yi and Ji

Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:42 am

Sky Scorcher wrote:I think that Wei Yan knew that Liu Shan was a weak ruler, and decided that it wouldn't be wise to follow him any more.


I think not.
If he didn't want to follow Liu Shan then why did he:
1)Want to command the army against Wei.
2)Submit a memorial to Liu Shan that Yang Yi was rebelling.

Wei Yan was 100% loyal to Shu,however his actions towards his fellow officers were treasonous.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Stedfel » Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:59 am

Exar Kun wrote:
Sky Scorcher wrote:I think that Wei Yan knew that Liu Shan was a weak ruler, and decided that it wouldn't be wise to follow him any more.


I think not.
If he didn't want to follow Liu Shan then why did he:
1)Want to command the army against Wei.
2)Submit a memorial to Liu Shan that Yang Yi was rebelling.

Wei Yan was 100% loyal to Shu,however his actions towards his fellow officers were treasonous.


I must argue with that. Wei Yan, to my knowledge, did nothing to the other officers, history-wise. I seem to remember a few events where other officers did stuff to HIM, but not the other way around. I'd like to see some proof of his 'treasonous' actions torwards his fellow officers.


I would also like to post something about Yang Yi, who is pretty muchly the main reason Wei Yan died. This is not a response to the above argument:

On Zhuge Liang’s many campaigns, Yang Yi would often perform his duties well. He was involved with the transportation of the supplies. With him, there was no delay, nor causes for worry making it convent. He handled military affairs well. Zhuge Liang deeply valued [Yang Yi’s] talents, as well as valued Wei Yan’s valiance and bravery. [Zhuge Liang] would often resent the fact that the two didn’t get along peacefully, and didn’t bear to take either side.

In the twelfth year [AD 234], [Yang Yi] accompanied Zhuge Liang to station at Gu Kou. Zhuge Liang died in enemy territory. Yang Yi was then in control of the army to retreat. He aslo put to death Wei Yan. He thought his merits were many and great. Enough to be suitable to replace Zhuge Liang’s authority [filling the vacuum]. 呼都尉趙正以周易筮, 卦得家人, 默然不悅. When Zhuge Liang was still alive, he indicated that Yang Yi’s nature was rash and narrow-minded. Instead thoughts were on Jiang Wan, Jiang Wan was to be the Prefect Master of Writing (shang shu ling) (II) and Inspector of Yi Zhou (yi zhou ci shi) (III). When Yang Yi arrived, he was made Instructor of the Central Army (zhong jun shi) with no actual command only appearance of rank.


To me, this shows that Yang yi is quite ambitious, and in my opinion, untrustworthy.

Yang Yi disliked Fei Yi and would often talk in front and behind him. He expressed to him saying: “Formerly when the Prime Minister had died, I could have taken the army over to Wei. Then I wouldn’t have came down to this predicament. Things can’t be changed, it really makes one regret the past!”


This confirms my above post.
Stedfel
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:33 am

Unread postby deathgrave » Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:40 am

In my opinion Wei Yan was rebellious but not in the way Zhuge thought.

He was a fierce, aggressive general and since Zhuge was pretty poor at dealing with people. (Liu Bei was good with people but since he was dead at this time...) Zhuge obviously didnt trust him. (I could refer to the Ma Su incident but i wont! :D )

There is also no proper truth in the betrayal of Shu by Wei Yan.

And would Wei have even wanted/needed him with all their military might? , i dont think so.
deathgrave
Apprentice
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:23 am

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 11 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron