Zhuge Liang and Liu Chan

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Zhuge Liang and Liu Chan

Unread postby dengai » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:15 am

What do you think would have happened if zhuge liang conquered both wu and wei when he was alive? Would he let liu chan remain as the emporer? Or would he userp the throne.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:26 am

If that had happened, ZGL would assume the role of Yi Yin if Liu Chan failed to get the message...

Essentially what Yi Yin did was seizing the throne from Tai Jia until Tai Jia repented...

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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:36 am

There were no problems with Liu Shan while Zhuge Liang was alive. Considering that in order to have conquered Wu and Wei in this hypothetical example, Liu Shan would have to have remained at the very least not actively incompetent, I don't think he would have had any reason to depose him. I don't think Zhuge had any designs on the throne; whether or not he was loyal the Han emperors specifically, or simply the spirit of quality government originally established by the Han, there is no doubt of his loyalty to Liu Bei, and removing his son from the throne, regardless of what Liu Bei apparently said on his deathbed, would have been complete disloyalty to him. No way Zhuge usurps the throne.

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Unread postby Sky Scorcher » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:40 am

I also believe that Zhuge thought he was a "servant of the Han," and therefore he didn't want to wield absolute power.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:45 am

Neither did Yi Yin... He even was commended from his acts. :roll: Yi Yin never wanted the throne for himself. What he did was essentially "punishing" Emperor Tai Jia until "he got it".

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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:47 am

There is no way--no way ever--that Zhuge Liang would ever usurp the throne. He was a film believer in patrilineal succession (evidenced by his distaste for Liu Feng's position), and would never deign to replace the Liu bloodline, which he saw as an essential part of the leader of the empire, no matter how incompetant the person. He would have acted as an advisor, to help show Liu Shan how he would be expected to act, etc., but wouldn't rule directly.

In addition, there is no way that someone like Huang Hao would have come to power if Zhuge Liang was around. Zhuge Liang would have had a lot more swing at court than Jiang Wei did, and he proved that he was more than willing to use his authority to dispatch people who failed the empire in some way (even Ma Su).
"If I had to do my life over, I would change every single thing I have done."
— Raymond Douglas Davies, 1967
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Unread postby Sky Scorcher » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:50 am

to help show Liu Shan how he would be expected to act, etc., but wouldn't rule directly.


I suppose that was one of the last messages Liu gave to Kongming before he died. I know that Liu Bei knew that his son didn't have much experience in politics and war, therefore, he relied heavily on Kongming to teach these principles to him.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:53 am

Hmm... I think I'd better state my assumption...

Of course, if Liu Chan did nothing wrong -- ZGL would never ever do that. I thought that if ZGL still lived and Liu Chan did stupid thing like he did in the real history, then ZGL would've taken the throne -- not because of greed, but rather for his dedication to Liu Bei. I also believe that people like Huang Hao wouldn't be around when ZGL still lived.

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Unread postby dengai » Sat Jul 17, 2004 1:29 am

Zhuge's objective was to do what liu bei told him to do when liu bei was dying--to help liu chan restore the han dynasty. If the han dynasty is restored, and zhuge feels chan is unfit to be a ruler, he might not usurp the throne but remove chan and find another heir of bei to be the emporer
(that is if he is really really royal, if he is not as loyal as he acts (hypocrite), then he would for sure overthrow liu chan like how sima yan over threw cao haung).
Last edited by dengai on Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Liu Yuante » Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:30 am

There are a lot of differences between Zhuge Liang's situation and that of the Sima. First of all, over the course of many years the Sima became predominant at the imperial court of Wei and established themselves in the administration and the military. Sima Yi may have brought on the transfer of real (as opposed to nominal) authority to himself, and Sima Yan may have usurped the throne, but really it was an entire family that took over Wei. Furthermore, the founding of Jin brought with it an era of power and influence under the control of noble families, with whom the Sima had ingratiated themselves. This was one of the reasons why the Sima were able to bring off the usurpation.

The situation in Shu is exactly the opposite. Zhuge's family did not establish themselves in all of the major portions of the government, gradually gaining approval and siphoning off imperial power. Without this dominance of the imperial court it would have been impossible for Zhuge to know whether he would be backed up by a deposition of Liu Shan followed by himself taking the throne. Indeed, the fact that nothing of the sort occurred further indicates that Zhuge's priorities were not with winning the throne for himself. Had he been interested in that he would have stayed in Chengdu far more often and not worked himself to death on the battlefield. By the time Liu Bei died, Zhuge was already in his forties. With all of the work he did, and considering that for most people living into their 60s was old age, he could not have imagined himself living to an excessively old age. Therefore, were he interested in securing a base from which he or a descendant could eventually usurp the throne, he needed to start as soon as possible. Both the abdication of Han and that of Wei were prepared for over the course of decades.

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