who is the most fearless warrior

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most fearless warrior

Poll ended at Thu Aug 22, 2002 8:50 am

lu bu
4
25%
zhao yun
4
25%
xiahou dun
0
No votes
huang gai
1
6%
dian wei
4
25%
other (go on...surprise me!!)
3
19%
 
Total votes : 16

Unread postby goldenchild » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:25 pm

once again u said it urself. "it was unlikly 8 armies would juts sit there and let glory escape them." thats exactly what they did. no one from those 8 armies would face him rather it was as an army or as an individual. no one chased after him except the 3 brothers.

prowess in battle isnt all about how many people u kill or how strong u are, it also involves tactics and strategy. u give lu bu too much credit. a capable warrior, yes. a capable general, no. i agree that lu bu wasnt bad to the people. but dont persuade urself into thinking that he was about the people. lu bu cared only for himself.

now u named all those things that he did to make him so great. and in doing all those things he couldnt even die with his self-respect.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:13 am

once again u said it urself. "it was unlikly 8 armies would juts sit there and let glory escape them." thats exactly what they did. no one from those 8 armies would face him rather it was as an army or as an individual. no one chased after him except the 3 brothers.


actully I belive the armies follow
The soldiers of the eight armies cracked their throats with thunderous cheers and all dashed forward, pressing after Lu Bu as he made for the shelter of the Tiger Trap Pass. And first among his pursuers were the three brothers.


Yes they where scared that Lu Bu can kill 8 armies. The leaders could rush forward and join the brothers, overwhelming Lu Bu. I was pointing out a flaw, in my view, of the novel.

You also havn't told me how Lu Bu was supposed to win the duel and beat the 8 armies, thus negating the need to withdraw

prowess in battle isnt all about how many people u kill or how strong u are, it also involves tactics and strategy. u give lu bu too much credit. a capable warrior, yes. a capable general, no.


historically he was capable in both which is biasing me a bit. I had to remember to take out the "no good loyal advisors" bit. Lu Bu used tactics and strategy, just not always the right ones in the novel. He also held out for two years against Cao Cao himself. You don't do that with small army in Xu by being an idiot.

. but dont persuade urself into thinking that he was about the people. lu bu cared only for himself.


I have claimed Han loyalist before for Lu Bu but never that he cared for the people. Few, if any, of the warlords did. Cao Cao, Sun Quan and Liu Bei showed some care for the people but it didn't stop them fighting a long bloody civil war to rule the land.

and in doing all those things he couldnt even die with his self-respect.


you mean he didn't beg to die but instead offer his services to the victor? Then insult Liu Bei... in that case all job interveiws can be considered begging. Lu Bu was beaten, he was old and probably tired but his skill could be of use to Cao Cao and he said so. I don't see the begging part
Last edited by Dong Zhou on Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:28 am

you mean he didn't beg to die but instead offer his services to the victor. Then insult Liu Bei... in that case all job interveiws can be considered begging. Lu Bu was beaten, he was old and probably tired but his skill could be of use to Cao Cao and he said so. I don't see the begging part


Okay, you have made your point. Lu Bu did not beg for his life. However, during this era usually most honourable warriors and generals never offered their services to another leader (particularly one who has been their primary enemy for quite long). I would give Guan Yu, Zhang Ren and Zhang Liao as good examples, ones who accepted death once captured.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:14 am

I would give Guan Yu, Zhang Ren and Zhang Liao as good examples, ones who accepted death once captured.


Yes they are good examples and that is a great example of duty/bravery. I also laboured my point, I'm sorry. I wonder why Gao Shun never said anything or if Lu Bu had something about him that kept some officers loyal
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Unread postby Khayman » Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:29 pm

Hmm in my opinion, fearlessness in a warrior can be attributed to arrogance and ignorance, attributed which can be accounted to Guan Yu above all others.

A fearless warrior is a warrior whom can be confident enough to act alone, and yet accept the consequences of his actions. Although it may not be worded to directly tell us that Lu pleaded for his life to Cao, the way in which he actually spoke the words may tell a different story. I think that the fact that he also had a track record of 'using and abusing' people (Liu Bei and Dong Zhuo in particular) is enough to show that Lu Bu is not 'fearless' in the slightest, merely cold and calculating. If the topics title was 'Which warrior was most skilled in armed and unarmed combat', maybe Lu would be the right choice.

Again, it is wrong to attribute 'fearlessness' to strategic minds such as Pang Tong or Zhuge Liang, who were far too intelligent to allow themselves to fall into such a state of arrogance, well, maybe Pang Tong wasn't :wink:

A case may be put forward for Zhang Liao though as, although he was by no means a stupid man to be manipulated by others, he was brave enough to come out of retirement, when he knew his days as a warrior were far behind him, and fight for his state of Wu.

Another case may be put forward for a man who I find similar to Zhang Liao in many respects, Huang Zhong, who also continued to fight, forcing his body to a point of absolute exhaustion. However, I believe the biggest case for Huang Zhong's absoulte 'fearlessness' can be found in the fact that he was reluctant to join Shu, even with the knowing that if he did not, he would surely be killed, as well as the fearless loyalty he gave to his master, even though it was the same master who bade the executioners take Huang Zhong away and kill him for supposed treachery, an attribute which I believe can be least of all given to Huang.

Anyway, just my thoughts, Ill change my choice back to Huang, but all positive critiscms of my posts are welcome :)
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Unread postby goldenchild » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:07 pm

i never said he was supposed to beat 8 armies. this whole thing started with the comparisson between zhao yun and lu bu. u said that he used tactics but not good ones. what good is a tactician is none or rarely any of his tactics work?

now u say that Cao Cao, Sun Quan and Liu Bei showed some care for the people but it didn't stop them fighting a long bloody civil war to rule the land. what do u think lu bu was doing or would have done if he had lived long enough to fight as long as they did? do u not think that lu bu would have sacraficed lives so that he could rule? cao, sun, and liu fought for peace. lu bu fought for himself.

and i never said that he begged for his life. do u really think he wanted to help cao cao, or stay alive? he had no intentions of being ruled by cao cao. he offered his services to stay alive. had he not barked threats at liu bei he probably would have not been killed.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:31 pm

u said that he used tactics but not good ones. what good is a tactician is none or rarely any of his tactics work?


I misunderstood you about the duel. My apolgies

Who said they rarely worked? They didn't work as well as Cao Cao and co's did but they had resnoble succes rate. He was good enough a general to beat the likes of Zhang Yan and other good generals but he wasn't top draw, the Cao Cao class. Few however where.

cao, sun, and liu fought for peace. lu bu fought for himself


um I'm sure nobody wanted to land to stay divivded but most lords, the three you mention, the Yuans, Lu Bu fought for themselves and then unity second. They didn't go around delibratly making the people suffer but they managed it I guess. Lu Bu was no more or less ambitoius then say Yuan Shao.

However the threes rule brought better things for the people then Lu Bu did, civil war aside.

he had no intentions of being ruled by cao cao. he offered his services to stay alive. had he not barked threats at liu bei he probably would have not been killed.


I thought death threat thing was after death sentance passed?

What would happen after had he lived is open to debate and will never be settled so I'll just state my view: Lu Bu would be faithful. He was old and exhuasted now, his chance gone. He had served Xian, Zhang Miao/Cheng Gong and Yuan Shao faithfully. He had no other lord to turn to and I don't belive he was so stupid to try a revolt now. Cao Cao just had to treat him fairly and I'm sure Lu Bu would be a valued vassal.

Of course staying alive was his number one priority as well. :wink:
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Unread postby goldenchild » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:09 pm

as usual i agree and disagree with some of the things u said and to be honest, this can go on forever. i have to admit u do know ur stuff and u do fight a good fight so ill just end it here. my hat is off to u. but i do have a question. not about ROTK but about this website.

when u reply to my messages i always notice how u break it up into parts and reply to those certain things. how do u do that?
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Unread postby Khayman » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:12 pm

I think the fact that in an instant Lu turned from the man appealing to Cao's better side, to a sour and bitter man who had to resort to threatening the man who had looked after him, shows Lu to be absolutely morally corrupt, and it is impossible to believe he would be faithful to Cao after his past conduct *betraying Liu, Dhong etc*.

I believe this was Lu's downfall and the thing that would have forever hindered his potential, the fact that unlike the other 3 (Sun, Cao, Liu), he was only able to obtain land through a mixture of lying and backstabbing, and not throug the skill and 'fearlessness' to leave some of his work in others hands (eg give Zhang Liao a more active role, listen fully to his strategists advice etc)
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Unread postby Sang » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:29 am

Khayman wrote:I think the fact that in an instant Lu turned from the man appealing to Cao's better side, to a sour and bitter man who had to resort to threatening the man who had looked after him, shows Lu to be absolutely morally corrupt, and it is impossible to believe he would be faithful to Cao after his past conduct *betraying Liu, Dhong etc*.

I believe this was Lu's downfall and the thing that would have forever hindered his potential, the fact that unlike the other 3 (Sun, Cao, Liu), he was only able to obtain land through a mixture of lying and backstabbing, and not throug the skill and 'fearlessness' to leave some of his work in others hands (eg give Zhang Liao a more active role, listen fully to his strategists advice etc)


Where all the "lying and backstabbing" coming from?
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