Cai Wenji

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Re: yo

Unread postby Erdrick » Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:51 am

Da_Chicago_Jigalo wrote:Heh, see this is another part where Kessen 2 destorys the real Three Kingdoms Story. In Kessen 2, she was the leader of the Xiong Nu who was ordered by Cao Cao to fight Liu Bei.



Well, anyone who gets there RTK info from Kessen 2, same MAYBE the spelling of the names, is smoking a very, very good stash of something that I wish they'd share, because it must be premo...


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And there are five, and we know you said that too... we bugged Tommie's mustache, (you wouldn't believe what all was in there... I mean, a freaking mouse burrow, not to mention the legions of crabs...), and have it on tape, (plus the hug he gave you that went on just a touch too long...) :lol:
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:56 am

I originally posted about this in a thread for online resources, but I figure this is worth necromancing this thread for:

I recently finished reading an article by Hans Frankel in which he essentially opines that none of the 3 poems traditionally accredited to Cai Yan were actually written by her. Moreover, almost nothing is known about her life and her literary talent is suspect.

Does anybody know more about the subject? I mentioned the article name in the other topic.
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:37 pm

I thought we knew a little about her life rather then next to nothing, can you explain Hans Frankel's article a bit more? Sounds intresting.
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:56 pm

Alright.

http://puu.sh/VUlU

this is his conclusion, which might be better regarded as his thesis.

I have to leave soon, and his in-depth analysis would take a long time to recount. But essentially, here are the arguments he makes in support of it:

-Cai Yan was in the court of a South-Southern (*) Xiongnu leader, but the geographical conditions "she" describes in her poems do not match the geographical realities of where they lived.

-A genre of first person impersonation emerged in poetry and literary works during this time. Frankel argues that this accounts for "Cai Yan's" poetry. Some poets intrigued with her life, in particular with her exodus to Xiongnu lands, wrote poetry as if they were her.

-One point he makes is that the style of all three poems differ. He cites a Chinese linguist who determined that the third Poem she allegedly wrote has words that did not rhyme in their pronunciation during Eastern Han times (though did in later times). This makes it obvious that she did not write it. In fact, Dr. Rafe de Crespigny in his Biographical Dictionary states that she wrote "2" rather than "3" poems as well. I'm guessing most historians have thus accepted that one of the poems she is accredited for she did not write.

-He states that the subject matter of the remaining two poems do not agree with each other: http://puu.sh/VUuT

-He states that Poem 1 uses more types of rhymes and is overall "richer" than Poem 2, indicating likely different authors.

-He notes that few historical sources of the time reference Cai Yan. He mentions the Hou Han Shu of Fan Ye and the Cai Yan bie zhuan, but little else. Though really, to me it seems like a lot of historical matter could have simply been lost.

-He notes some anachronistic issues with the writing of the two poems that could have feasibly been written by her.



(*)-In the Late-Han, the Xiongnu were fractured between Northern and Southern Xiongnu. Then later the Southern Xiongnu were further divided when there was a rebellion among the Southern Xiongnu and part of the royal line split off, moving to Pingyang. They would later participate in the wars of the era serving Yuan Shao and his successors. But when Zhong Yao and Ma Chao won a victory against them, they submitted to Cao Cao (as I recall).
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Tian Shan » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:17 am

I am familiar that Liu Bao raped Cai Wenji/forced her to be his concubine

But here http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Ce-Xian
It mentions someone named Ce-Xian was her Xiongnu husband.
Is that she was just raped by Liu Bao and then given to Ce Xian, or one is inaccurate, or something else?
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Jordan » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:33 am

I would like to first inquire where you learned that Liu Bao had raped Cai Yan and forced her into concubinage.
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Tian Shan » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:23 pm

It was several years ago when I read on Cai Wenji, so I can not quote any sources at the moment. Perhaps it was even hearsay, I will see if I can locate the source.
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:43 am

I looked around and there are plenty of entries on Cai Wenji that state she was abducted by the Xiongnu and was married to Liu Bao.

It's possible to speculate, as with the case of Lady Xiahou and Zhang Fei, that abducting a woman could be a euphemism for rape, but everything I looked at mentions that she was married during this time, not a concubine.

But one reason I doubt that she was married to Liu Bao was that he lives for quite a long time after that. He was recorded as being a chanyu until 260. For him to have seized Cai Wenji in 194/195* during Li Jue's coup - and I would speculate be of age to be militarily competent enough to lead men and seize people, and marry women - he would have been born in 182/183* or earlier (which means he ruled as a chanyu until he was nearly 80). Yufuluo's date of birth on his Wikipedia entry is listed as 150 and he died in 196, so I suppose I could see it working out, but personally it seems like a stretch to me.

* - corrected numbers

Some quotes, unfortunately it's all from Wikipedia hehe:

During Li Jue's coup in Chang'an, Liu Bao seized Cai Wenji as his concubine and had two children with her. He released her when Cao Cao paid a ransom for her.
link

Liu Yuan's mother Lady Huyan (呼延) appeared to be from a noble family, and was in probability Liu Bao's wife and not a concubine, but that is not clear, though other sources state this was a name for Cai Wenji.
link

In the confederation, Luandi was a paternal dynastic tribe, Huyan was an initially maternal dynastic tribe, and Suibu (Sui tribe, "bu" is "tribe" in Chinese) was a subsequently maternal dynastic tribe.
link

I'll have to look around some more and see what else is out there.

Edit: Yeah, found something! I knew there was something fishy about Liu Bao's age.

Yun wrote:There is no evidence that the Xiongnu Virtuous Prince of the Left 左贤王 who married Cai Yan was named Ce Xian. The Wikipedia biography gives his name as Liu Bao 刘豹, on the basis that Liu Bao was the Left Virtuous Prince of the Xiongnu in 251 and was the son of the Xiongnu ruler Yufuluo, who died around the time of Cai Yan's capture. This means Liu Bao was alive in 195, although his rank and age at that time is unknown; he died around 280 and was therefore exceptionally long-lived. Cai Yan is known to have borne two sons to the Left Virtuous Prince, but only one of Liu Bao's sons is known to history: Liu Yuan 刘渊, who founded the Xiongnu Han regime in 304 and died in 310. The sources state that Liu Yuan's mother was the Xiongnu Lady Huyan 呼延, so he was not one of Cai Yan's sons - besides, it is unlikely he could have been born before 207 and lived to 310.
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:28 am

I remember Yun. He had some great posts about the post-Jin period and the 3k but I don't think he posts on Chinese History Forum anymore. I would wager that he is probably correct, as I have not heard before that Liu Bao took in Cai Yan. Moreover, it would have been fairly large news since Cai Yan was the daughter of the esteemed historian Cai Yong and Liu Bao was the father of the Xiongnu founder of Han (his attempt at a continuation of it), Liu Yuan.
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Re: Cai Wenji

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:50 am

The plot thickens.

From Deng Ai's SGZ:

During this time, in Bing Zhou, the Right Virtuous King or Zuo Xian Wang of the Huns, Liu Bao, managed to unite several Huns tribes. Deng Ai proposed to the Wei court that efforts must be made to disintegrate the Huns to prevent them from being united and growing too strong. According to Deng Ai, effective defense of the northern borders could only be achieved when the enemies were disunited. As such, Deng Ai proposed several strategies aiming to cause disunity in the Hun tribes. In addition, Deng Ai proposed that in different phases, the Qiang and Hu people who had assimilated with the Central Plains people should be segregated and re-educated to reduce crimes and atrocities (which they were blamed for).


I don't know Chinese so I can't verify based on language. But several websites were listing a "King Zuo Xian" as Cai Wenji's husband.

The thing is...

- Zuo Xian Wang appears to be a rank that denotes the Left Worthy Prince/King for the Xiongnu; in other words, the Crown Prince, whereas the Right Worthy Prince/King is You Xian Wang. So obviously that's not her husband's name...and I would discount Ce Xian as it's probably something similar.
- Deng Ai's SGZ bio refers to Liu Bao as the Right Worthy King/Prince (but he is also referred to as the zuoxianwang all over the place)
- Yun over at CHF in post refers to Liu Qubei (generally considered Huchuquan's son) as the Right Worthy Prince/King
- Page 128 mentions that her husband "Zuoxian" died before her and that her children were able to rejoin her in China, all before she even married Dong Si. I have my doubts about the veracity of this book's information but I find it interesting, and it would indicate that Liu Bao is not the Xiongnu figure she married.
- When Huchuquan was stripped of real power various people were appointed as his successors to oversee the divided Xiongnu groups to varying degrees, and Liu Bao seems to have been appointed in charge of the Left/West contingent

This is all quite interesting but now I'm even more confused. :lol:
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