If you were Ling Tong...

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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:55 pm

I really can't see Sun Quan shrugging off the murder of one of his best generals. He might allow a lot of leeway to his more talented men but he can't afford to allow senior members of his officer core to be freely murdered.

If I was Ling Tong and thus willingly served a kingdom with dubious men in it, I hope I would accept that Gan Ning did his duty. As much as I dislike Gan Ning for some of the stuff he did, it seems pointless to go after one guy when there others like Pan Zhang and Zhu Huan who were psychopaths. That and I would have committed murder so hardly Mr clean. Whether I would be willing to continue serving in a kingdom with men like Gan Ning and co in is another matter,

Striga wrote:At least create a plot first. Pretend to get drunk, then kill him as if possessed. The charges will be less (I think).


Might make execution less painful or awful I guess

Shen Ai wrote:If it meant upholding my honour and avenging the grief I felt at his death, then yes. And I'm about 80% percent sure my father wouldn't mind so long as I was happy with my choice. And I think I would be.

People who say revenge isn't the answer have never needed to avenge anything, and therefore they can't relate.


I think my father would tell me to grow up and stop sulking. If my father served an army during a time of war, I really shouldn't go hating the guy who kills him in battle. What's the killer supposed to do? Throw flowers at the invading army?

As one who has reason for revenge (though not involving murder), I do think it solves nothing.

Plus, Gan Ning was a general of lesser talent that most, like Huang Gai, Ling Tong, Zhu Ran, and Zhu Huan. Zhou Yu and Lu Xun were both superior thinkers to him as well. His death would be nothing.


Gan Ning was superior to all four of those in my opinion. Yes he was not a commander material like Zhou Yu and Lu Xun but he was a very skilled general who had many accomplishments for Wu.

Finally, he was a pretty cruel bastard. I mean, he killed for the fun of it. So what if he was a pirate? Zhou Tai managed fine and was a far better man.


Zhou Tai was not a pirate.

If you don't like Wu's policy of using psychopaths, wouldn't it be better to leave Wu, retire in protest or go the whole hog and kill Quan whose policy allows this?
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:39 pm

Sorry novel thing again.

Well you're lucky to have a dad who would be so brutally honest with you. Mine is more of a love and honour type. The 'do or die' kind. Not that I mind, but that's were i get my values on such matters from.

As for Gan Ning's skill level? Well, we can save that for another time, but I don't feel his contributions are as significant as those I had mentioned.
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:02 am

He isn't brutally honest or anything but he doesn't like sulking and he knows actions have consequences. You join an army-you risk death. Particularly if you join during a time of war. It's a bit like a fireman complaining about fighting fire. Bizarre.

I think it is essentially going: how dare those soldiers do their job and try to stop us invading their homes, I want to needlessly bring more deaths and kill them outside of war. Also suggest the idea leads to any defending soldier ever is a murderer and the dead aggressors children should be allowed to murder the defending soldiers.
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Erdrick » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:45 pm

Wouldn't kill him. Would want to, but he's now a comrade-in-arms. I would likely ask to either be stationed at a different post (far away) from him; and, the first time he fucked up be all over his ass...

But killing him because of purely personal reasons, after he has been accepted as an effective subject? Petty and weak, (not, again, that I wouldn't WANT to- but it would be the minor good)
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:20 pm

Necro time! Doing total war profiles made me think of this.

How do people feel now? Was Ling Tong justified with his attitude towards Gan Ning for the death of his father or does this speak ill of Ling Tong?
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:36 am

I mean, I can completely get the hating of the man who killed your father. I think wanting to kill him was understandable. But I also think that the moment Gan Ning defected to Sun Quan's side, with the death having happened in an open battle, the situation changed. Ling Tong could have secretly fantasised about killing him but for the sake of his Lord and the unity of his force never acted or spoke about his wish. All of that said, I think there were plenty of valid reasons, even after his defection to argue that the scumbag should have been put to death and I probably would have framed an argument in those terms.
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:23 pm

This was a society where vendettas existed, so wanting revenge against Gan Ning was socially accepted, maybe even socially expected.
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Xu Huang fan » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:14 pm

Fornadan wrote:This was a society where vendettas existed, so wanting revenge against Gan Ning was socially accepted, maybe even socially expected.

this is very much the case if i recall correctly, infact one of the shakey parts of the novel was Cao Cao wanting revenge on Tao Qian for being (even if indirectly) responsible for the death of his father, and how this was portrayed as a negative thing, dispite that, in the era, you were suppose to be loyal to your parents and if someone harmed them, you were to make things even, otherwise you looked like you didn't care about family which was a pretty big social stigma.

in my mind, Cao Cao was in one of those "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" situations regarding that because the novel was deadset to make him not only the villian, but a bad person, i wonder what this reminds me of in current day...

back on topic, by the era's standards, which is all we can really judge these people by, Ling Tong was in the right to be upset over his father's death, and never quite got over it, which would've been seen as understandable to his peers.

Now if we look at modern day information, even if we overlook the death of Ling Cao, Gan Ning was a pretty awful person who kept committing various acts of evil regardless of how many times Lu Meng and others would try to prevent and convince him not too, all because Sun Quan was the embodiment of "i don't care about who they are or they're personality, i just want their talent" which can be a double edged sword, but yeah by modern standards too, i can't imagine alot of people would've been upset with Ling Tong not buring the hatchet, double so when you look at Gan Ning's crimes and its not like he'd be killing a saint or a half way decent guy if the revenge went threw.
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:26 am

I think the novel more objects becuase Tao Qian is meant to be 100% innocent so shouldn't be targeted rather then seeking revenge part

I know it is an era of vendetta's and Gan Ning was a vile man but I find what he did, even in the standards of his time, unprofessional. Upset? Sure by all means but Ling Tong is the only one to have attacked his own side for such a thing. Deaths in war happened, Ling Tong is the only case where such an event led to ruler having to split two valuable officers up so I don't think it was normal for the era.
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Re: If you were Ling Tong...

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:29 am

Yeah, I agree with Dong. I know filial loyalty was important, but so was loyalty to one's Lord. The one other example in the novel I can think of where someone picked their mother other their Lord was Xu Shu and that decision wasn't portrayed particularly positively?
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