If Guan Yu would have taken Cao Cao prisoner

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Unread postby Wu Chun » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:34 pm

was he really dead at that time? i though he died after that event.... maybe your right then
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Unread postby Li Zhen » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:39 pm

I'm afraid I support my brother, Sima Hui in this argument. The point of my earlier post was that even Zhuge Liang knew killing Cao Cao would only make things worse for his liege.

Although I think Cao Cao's leadership was what kept Wei (well, Han at the time) alive, I do no think his death would bring the state into such chaos. Neither of the sons Cao Zhi and Cao Pi would be strong enough in the role Cao Cao held, and most likely the Han would regain control (but with a weakened government).

Wu would suceed in any invasion, and the Suns would be at the head of another great dynasty. Liu Bei would be unable to oppose the strength of Wei and Wu combined, and his role in history would end.

btw, Cao Cao actually had 25 sons. The only other ones I can think of are Cao Xiong and Cao Yu though.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:46 pm

Li Zhen wrote:btw, Cao Cao actually had 25 sons. The only other ones I can think of are Cao Xiong and Cao Yu though.

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/giles/text/caoxiahou.txt

Some more of Cao's sons. This can also be found on KMA, but my own page's link was a quicker grab.
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Unread postby Li Zhen » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:59 pm

Hey thanks Kong Wen. :)

It seems he had 27 sons then. Wow!!

This is a little off topic, but would Cao Ren's grandfather Cao Bao be the same Cao Bao who was Lu Bu's uncle?
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:05 pm

Li Zhen wrote:Hey thanks Kong Wen. :)

It seems he had 27 sons then. Wow!!

Well, the last two on that list were a couple of his daughters--probably the ones mentioned in the novel as being married off to important figures.

Li Zhen wrote:This is a little off topic, but would Cao Ren's grandfather Cao Bao be the same Cao Bao who was Lu Bu's uncle?

I don't think so. Cao Ren's grandfather was probably roast by that time.
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Unread postby Wu Chun » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:05 pm

that means he had ALOT of fun with the ladies...
maybe protection was not very special back then
i would hate to see the child support bill
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Unread postby Guan Zhi Sun of Guan Yu » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:32 pm

Wu Chun wrote:that means he had ALOT of fun with the ladies...
maybe protection was not very special back then
i would hate to see the child support bill


Gross.....
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Unread postby Hecatombmi » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:42 pm

I think that the death of Cao Cao would have spelled victory for Liu Bei. With the central figurehead dead the north would fall apart(If Wu and Shu acted quickly....which they would have) There would be a race to the capitol, and Liu Bei would have sent a letter to the emperor. The Emperor would have denounced the Cao clan in the anarchy, and could have swayed much of the north to ally with no fighting.(also Liu Bei was a very charismatic leader, and people would have sided him more naturally then Sun Quan anyway.

About Zhou Yu. He is completely overrated. He would not put aside his petty differences to remove a larger menace. Wu and Shu were supposed to be allies, and may have acted like it if it weren't for Zhou Yu's scheming.
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Unread postby harshbarge » Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:35 pm

About Zhou Yu. He is completely overrated. He would not put aside his petty differences to remove a larger menace


How is he overrated?The dispute over Jing or whatever was hardly a petty
difference. And didn't he beat that larger menace

.(also Liu Bei was a very charismatic leader, and people would have sided him more naturally then Sun Quan anyway


I understand where this is coming from but im not sure who is left to join him. I think the major Wei generals would stay loyal to the Cao clan, be it his children or Cao Ren or the Xiahou's. And the majority of Wu has great pride after Chi Bi
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Unread postby Li Zhen » Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:34 am

I don't think Zhou Yu is overrated, but it was dissapointing to see in the novel how he concentrates his attack on Liu Bei instead of Cao Cao. He just seems to be ruining Wus chances by campaigning against the only dependable ally they have against the hordes of Wei.

Kong Wen wrote:
Li Zhen wrote:This is a little off topic, but would Cao Ren's grandfather Cao Bao be the same Cao Bao who was Lu Bu's uncle?


I don't think so. Cao Ren's grandfather was probably roast by that time.


Oh :( . I was hoping there would then be a link between Lu Bu and the Cao Clan that would ultimately mean all three ruling families shared a relation with the great warrior.
Last edited by Li Zhen on Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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