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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:21 pm
by Dong Zhou
Liu Bei228 wrote:First, advantage of being under Yuan Shao with his support.

Okay, attacking Cao Cao and Liu Bei while they were away, a cowardly attack while they were away, a major advantage that they were away.


So Cao Ren's defence of Jing, he should have won becuase he had Cao Cao and his support? Liu Feng should have held Shangyong beucuase he had the entire of Shu to support him? Lu Bu led an expidtion against a big force, he won, not Yuan Shao, Lu Bu.

Lu Bu still beat Cao Cao in the field once Cao Cao was confident of victory. Sure, Lu Bu attacked Cao Cao's and then Liu Bei's lands while they where away, it is called trying to take advantage of an oppertunity, not cowardice.

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:22 pm
by Liu Bei228
Dong Zhou wrote:
Liu Bei228 wrote:So Cao Ren's defence of Jing, he should have won becuase he had Cao Cao and his support?

What support did he have from Cao Cao? He was left to fend for himself.
Liu Feng should have held Shangyong beucuase he had the entire of Shu to support him?

My knowledge on this is a bit.. I have no knowledge of this really.
Lu Bu led an expidtion against a big force, he won, not Yuan Shao, Lu Bu.

Where do you think Lu Bu got his resources from? His troops? His supplies?
Lu Bu still beat Cao Cao in the field once Cao Cao was confident of victory. Sure, Lu Bu attacked Cao Cao's and then Liu Bei's lands while they where away, it is called trying to take advantage of an oppertunity, not cowardice.

No, Cao Cao or Liu Bei[especially] had no connection to Lu Bu, he had no reason to attack them so of course they wouldn't be prepared[especially Liu Bei seeing as how he helped Lu Bu] and also in Lu Bu's attack on Zhang Fei an officer opened the gate for him, is that a huge adavantage, something which was a fluke for Lu Bu. If he had attacked enemies then it would be smart but, to attack people he had no fight with is cowardice, they didn't even know he considered them his enemy.

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:57 pm
by Jedi
If Lu Bu hadnt attacked Liu Bei he might have lived.

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:28 am
by jiang cheng
Had he been smart, he would not have defect to Dong Zhuo.

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:19 am
by Dong Zhou
jiang cheng wrote:Had he been smart, he would not have defect to Dong Zhuo.


Why not? He was serving a minor general in Ding Yuan, Dong had risen through the ranks and was a famed general who was now the dominate force at the capital.

What support did he have from Cao Cao? He was left to fend for himself.


Where did Cao Ren get his troops and supplies from?

Where do you think Lu Bu got his resources from? His troops? His supplies?


Then Zhang Fei's defeat of Zhang He is of no note, he had troops and supplies from his lord. So Lu Bu had troops and supplies against a massive force? Should he turn them down and fight on his own?

Liu Bei used Cao Cao's men to take Xu and rebel, he used some of Liu Zhang's own men to attack Liu Zhang. What is the diffirence?

No, Cao Cao or Liu Bei[especially] had no connection to Lu Bu, he had no reason to attack them so of course they wouldn't be prepared[especially Liu Bei seeing as how he helped Lu Bu] and also in Lu Bu's attack on Zhang Fei an officer opened the gate for him, is that a huge adavantage, something which was a fluke for Lu Bu


His connection with Cao Cao was he was asked by his oath brother to attack Cao Cao's base, he did so. His relationship with Liu Bei was that of aone who wanted Liu Bei to be like a brother but stepped in when Zhang Fei cuased mass riots

Lu Bu lost a battle when someone opended the gates, it happens sometimes.

If he had attacked enemies then it would be smart but, to attack people he had no fight with is cowardice, they didn't even know he considered them his enemy.


He did attack enenmies, he just used suprise.

Is Liu Bei a coward? He attacked Cao Cao and the Governor of Xu without notice, he plotted against Lu Bu and Liu Zhang to attack without warning, men who didn't know they where his enenmies.

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:03 pm
by LiuBeiwasGreat
For Dong Zhuo: There was no real record of Cao Ren recieveing any supplies from Cao Cao when he was being attacked by Wu. The records indicate that he was surrounded and cut off from any help from the north. So yes Cao Ren was forced to fend for himself against Wu.

Also your last comment makes little sense. You cannot compare Liu Bei's attack on Xu or his fights against Lu Bu and Liu Zhang to Lu Bu's attacks on Cao Cao and Liu Bei. The difference is that Lu Bu waited until the main armies of each place were gone and then attacked. Liu Bei moved against these people head on in battle. It is not "cowardly" to use suprise as a tactic however it is a bit when you wait until someone isn't around to attack their home. Also Liu Zhang made the first offensive move against Liu Bei if we remember correctly so that is a different situation on itself

For the sake of politeness i left that horribly bias version of Liu Bei's actions in Yi that you gave in that other thread. The guy was simply asking for information, you think you could have given him a bit more of a nutral retelling? :P

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:51 pm
by Dong Zhou
Feel free to offer an alternative version of what happend up to the point the two sides clashed. Was it the Liu Bei is evil title of my post that showed my bias? :P To be honest, I would like to reword a sentance or two of my post there

Did Cao Cao not give him troops well before Chi Bi to bring Jing under Cao Cao's control while Caop Cao attacked Sun Quan? Yuan Shao gave Lu Bu troops and told him to do a task against a large army, Lu Bu did it. Cao Ren did better with his thing though

Liu Bei tried to be sneaky aginat Liu Zhang(to a degree) and Lu Bu but got discovered while I doubt the Governor of Xu had much of a chance to draw up an army. I think Lu Bu only really arrived on the scene when Cao Cao was away and he might have kicked himself to not take advantage of riots when he attacled Zhang Fei. Had people rioted while Liu Bei was there, I think Lu Bu would have attacked, it is a matter of taking what chances come your way.

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:26 pm
by LiuBeiwasGreat
Dong Zhou wrote:Feel free to offer an alternative version of what happend up to the point the two sides clashed. Was it the Liu Bei is evil title of my post that showed my bias? :P To be honest, I would like to reword a sentance or two of my post there

Did Cao Cao not give him troops well before Chi Bi to bring Jing under Cao Cao's control while Caop Cao attacked Sun Quan? Yuan Shao gave Lu Bu troops and told him to do a task against a large army, Lu Bu did it. Cao Ren did better with his thing though

Liu Bei tried to be sneaky aginat Liu Zhang(to a degree) and Lu Bu but got discovered while I doubt the Governor of Xu had much of a chance to draw up an army. I think Lu Bu only really arrived on the scene when Cao Cao was away and he might have kicked himself to not take advantage of riots when he attacled Zhang Fei. Had people rioted while Liu Bei was there, I think Lu Bu would have attacked, it is a matter of taking what chances come your way.


You know i was just teasing, i might give an alternate version but i don't take it seriously enough to jump in :P

Yes Cao Ren was given troops but that was only a peacekeeping force. The southern districts surrendered with the provience so Cao Ren wasn't tasked with passifying the southern lands only with protecting Jiang Ling. He had his defense garrison and that's it. Hardly a force which was prepared to fight off a year long siege.

The governor of Xu didn't know that Liu Bei was coming to attack. Hell he didn't know why Liu Bei was there in the first place. He recieved no word that an army would be approaching so he probably didn't walk out by himself to be killed like the novel says but he probably didn't have his armies prepared.
With the thing about Zhang Fei i don't recal any source saying that there were riots. I believe all they say was that Lu Bu led a sneak attack when Liu Bei had taken the army and left.
Also notice that i put quotes around cowardly in my last post, i did that because i don't trully believe that Lu Bu did these things because he was afraid of Liu Bei or Cao Cao, he simply took advantage of them simply leaving themselves open. I was mainly saying that the situations were different in regards to Lu Bu and Liu Bei. Liu Bei used some trickery but it was based off of stratagy and tactics. He planed these things out and attacked while i believe Lu Bu simply saw an opportunity and took it.

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:50 pm
by Roy
Lu Bu was neither cowardly or brave. He was just extremely overconfident.

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:33 pm
by Dong Zhou
LBWG, I agree with most of your points and will only say that according to the ZZTJ, Zhang Fei executed popular offical Cao Bao and the people rioted.