Lu Bu: Smart or Cowardly?

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Was Lu Bu a coward?

Yes
16
26%
No
45
74%
 
Total votes : 61

Unread postby DAv » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:25 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
DAv wrote:He wasn't a coward but hardly the brightest utensil in the drawer either. A treacherous, self serving, opportunist that really got everything he had coming to him.


Ohhhhh I forgot the Han loyalist bit didn't I?

Who are we to judge another man's actions? He was a man who struck out on his own path and in the end failed. At least thats my view


By murdering two seperate men who were willing to call him 'son'. I'll give him leeway with Dong Zhou but not Wang Yun. Lu Bu's actions show him to be the traitor that he was and his own actions got him killed. Oh, and by the way, holding out in a siege isn't a very difficult job so long as you have the supplies. Even a vastly outnumbered force can still emerge victorious from a siege.
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Unread postby ShuWeiYan » Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:29 pm

No because although he begged to live after being captured at Xia Pi, but the only honorable thing he did was trying to make peace between Liu Bei and Yuan Shu and he thought up all of plan by himself.
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Unread postby Master Kong » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:33 pm

He wasn't a coward till the very end. In every battle he went out knowing he is the best but when he gets defeated it turns his whole world around. Imagine if someone toyed with zhuge liang the way he toyed with some of his dumber oppenents. He would be scared and confused (this is all novel perspective since i know hardly anything about lu bu historicly and i know zhuge liang was a mediocre commander, well at the most somewaht above average).
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:08 am

DAv wrote:By murdering two seperate men who were willing to call him 'son'. I'll give him leeway with Dong Zhou but not Wang Yun. Lu Bu's actions show him to be the traitor that he was and his own actions got him killed. Oh, and by the way, holding out in a siege isn't a very difficult job so long as you have the supplies. Even a vastly outnumbered force can still emerge victorious from a siege.


Very late I know, searching for something else and realised I hadn't replied to this

Why not Wang Yun? Lu Bu didn't betray him, he fought valiently as men swarmed over the walls but unless he can kill all of Li Jue's army single handed, he had to retreat. Holding out in a seige is rather hard when you have been betrayed, the city is rioting and the gates are open.

Murdering Ding Yuan for a famed Han general, in a one off perhaps understandable. Dong tried to kill him first and he was persuaded by Wang Yun that he was doing the right thing to kill Dong
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:24 am

He still betrayed two people- why did he trust Wang Yun who was some outsider instead of trusting his "father" or leader? Remember that it was one of the most important things for you to do- make sure you dont betray your ruler (ie- Ding Yuan followed by Dong Zhou).

I understand the mittigating circumstances but I think he was evil and selfish to kill Ding Yuan and stupid (in trusting Wang Yun) to kill Dong Zhou.
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Unread postby Jedi » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:35 pm

Cao Cao tricked Lu Bu bad. Cao Cao faked his death and Lu Bu attacked the coffin and Lu Bu had to run lol.


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Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

He seem to need a major advantage to win his battles in my opinion. Coward.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:33 pm

He still betrayed two people- why did he trust Wang Yun who was some outsider instead of trusting his "father" or leader? Remember that it was one of the most important things for you to do- make sure you dont betray your ruler (ie- Ding Yuan followed by Dong Zhou).


Dong, who had tried to kill you or Minister Wang Yun who claimed it would be a good thing for the Han to kill Dong? The whole killing Dong thing is damned if you, damned if you don't.

Did Wang Yun betray Lu Bu's trust? I don't really see how it is stupid?

He seem to need a major advantage to win his battles in my opinion. Coward.


What major advantage did he have in this victory?
While serving Yuan Shao, Lü Bu was tasked to lead an expedition against Zhang Yan at Chang Shan. Zhang Yan had several tens of thousands of soldiers and several thousand cavalry. Lü Bu possessed a good steed named Chi Tu (Red Hare). Together with his confidants Cheng Lian and Wei Yue, Lü Bu led frequent attacks on Zhang Yan’s troops and eventually defeated him


I'm confused how being unable to win without a major advantage makes him a coward? Or did something else make him seem to be a coward?
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Unread postby Liu Bei228 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:00 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
He seem to need a major advantage to win his battles in my opinion. Coward.


What major advantage did he have in this victory?
While serving Yuan Shao, Lü Bu was tasked to lead an expedition against Zhang Yan at Chang Shan. Zhang Yan had several tens of thousands of soldiers and several thousand cavalry. Lü Bu possessed a good steed named Chi Tu (Red Hare). Together with his confidants Cheng Lian and Wei Yue, Lü Bu led frequent attacks on Zhang Yan’s troops and eventually defeated him


I'm confused how being unable to win without a major advantage makes him a coward? Or did something else make him seem to be a coward?

First, advantage of being under Yuan Shao with his support.

Okay, attacking Cao Cao and Liu Bei while they were away, a cowardly attack while they were away, a major advantage that they were away.
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Unread postby Xu Yuan » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:03 pm

I believe those were Chen Gong's plans, but even so attacking a land while the lord is away, is a smart move. Not to mention it saved Tao Qian's and maybe even Liu Bei's life.
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