Zhao Yun: Useless?

[paijo_anelka]

tks so much all for helping out to defend Zilong !! im touched !!

anyway, I found an interesting passage about Chen Shou's final thoughts on the Five Tiger Generals.

Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun both strong and valiant were good subordinates of their lord, like the claws and teeth to a beast. Can they not compare to the likes of Guan Yin and Xiahou Yin?

being claws and teeth to a beast, that says a lot. I think Zhao Yun and Huang Zhong are generals who follows order valiantly, and very loyal. Where as Zhang Fei and Guan Yin are like independent tigers helping out Liu Bei, ZY and HZ acts as his teeth and claws instead.

Another interesting comparison is how HZ and ZY were compared to Guan Yin and Xiahou Yin (Xiahou Yuan is it?), which I think was two other great generals (although I love Xiahou Dun much more).

[King_Ilze]

This is his kill list: Qu Yi,Gao Lan ( he deserved it because he killed Liu Pi ), Zhang Wu, Lu Kuang, Chunyu Dao, Xiahou En, Yan Ming,Zhong Jin,Zhong Shen, Xing Daorong (he deserevd it) Liu Jun, Murong Lie, Jiao Bing, Zhu Ran, Jinhuan Sanjie, Han Ying, Han Qi, Han Qiong, Han De and Su Yong. To me that seems quite impressive. There is also no proof that he did not fight anyone either, killing all those people only goes to show his skill and martial prowess. In my eyes anyway .

That's pretty impressive. Although most of those guys arent really famous, that doesnt mean they were easy kills. Gao Lan and Zhu Ran were two officers who I know were strong soldiers. Xing Daorong and Jinjuan Sanjie were no powderpuffs either.

Just the fact that Zhou Yun was called the Right Arm of Shu is enough to show that he aint useless. Hell, Zhuge Liang even called him that and you can trust him... well, if your a Shuist, which I aint.

Back then, wasnt the right arm supposed to be good and powerful and the left arm evil and weak? Yes, that was kinda random but oh well...

[phenomenal17]

In the novel, just about every poem I can remember about Zhao Yun goes back to Chang Ban. They do not, however, stop at Chang Ban. Granted, the novel isn't the best historical resource, but use it as an example: his accomplishments didn't stop and start at Chang Ban. Why should your assessment?

[Separation Anxiety]

Ok, Zhao Yun gets too much credit. The stuff he did after Changban was all done in the presence of another famous general. Also Guan Yu had no real great and outstanding feats historically. I think he got lucky once with Jingzhou, but other than that nothing. Zhao Yun rescued Liu Shan, nothing to brag about, and even more so he disobeyed his lords wishes in doing so. He would rather risk his son than his general.

Also with the claws and teeth. Who were Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhuge Liang. They were more highly elevated than Zhao Yun ever was. Historically Zhao was a bodyguard, but LGZ made him to be greater because he was a member of Shu, much like he did with Zhuge Liang, Liu bei, Guan Yu, and Ma Chao, and countless others,

[Exar Kun]

Historically Zhao was a bodyguard,

I stopped reading after I saw that.
That statement alone brings your ignorance on this matter to the fore.

[Tyler]

He was not useless, though saving Liu Shan was kinda like helping Wei he was of good use to the Shu-Han Empire.

[Ma Zhi Xuan]

Ok, Zhao Yun gets too much credit. The stuff he did after Changban was all done in the presence of another famous general. Also Guan Yu had no real great and outstanding feats historically. I think he got lucky once with Jingzhou, but other than that nothing. Zhao Yun rescued Liu Shan, nothing to brag about, and even more so he disobeyed his lords wishes in doing so. He would rather risk his son than his general.

Are you one of those people who completely ignores everything and only reads what he wants to read? C'mon admit it, you are .

Seperation Anxiety, see if you can find anyone with as many acomplishments as Zhao Yun all in the same areas as him(not including the leaders ie Cao Cao), I bet you can't. With all those acomplishments, I think he actually deserves all that credit. (I'll put this in bold, just for you )

Also the times he actually accomplished something in war, he was with another general like Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei, etc. he accomplished little to nothing on his own. Sure he was loyal, but loyalty is meaningless if you don't have skill to back it up.

Actually I've counted 4 paragraphs of my previous post that are about Zhao Yun's accomplishments in war on his own, and even if he was with someone else, like Li Ruiyue pointed out it could mean that they needed Zhao Yun's help, as opposed to him needing thier help.

Don't stray off topic and argue Guan Yu. I'd like to know where you got, "he disobeyed his lords wishes", Liu Bei never wished him or told him to not rescue Liu Shan, Zhao Yun used the initiative of a loyal and honourable general and went to rescue him before he was captured. Think about what would've happened if Cao Cao captured Liu Shan?

Also with the claws and teeth. Who were Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhuge Liang. They were more highly elevated than Zhao Yun ever was. Historically Zhao was a bodyguard, but LGZ made him to be greater because he was a member of Shu, much like he did with Zhuge Liang, Liu bei, Guan Yu, and Ma Chao, and countless others,

:lol: How can you say "historically Zhao Yun was a bodyguard" after all those accomplishements he made as a general of Liu Bei , you make me laugh. I'm not going to argue that pathetic statement.

[Liu Pi]

Ma Zhi Xuan is right, did you read the kill list, those are some beasty generals e.g. Gao Lan (i still think he deserved it ) and Xing Daorong, Zhu Ran and many others. He didn't disobey Liu Bei at Chang Ban as he wasn't ordered to rescue Liu Shan (although i think that he shouldn't have bothered all the same ) Ma Zhi Xuan is right again in saying that he used his initiative in going back to find him and Lady Gan.

[Li Ruiyue]

Historically Zhao was a bodyguard, but LGZ made him to be greater because he was a member of Shu, much like he did with Zhuge Liang, Liu bei, Guan Yu, and Ma Chao, and countless others,

Have you ever thought that LGZ didn't exaggerate their skills and that many people in Shu did have talent?
What is so wrong with Shu here? You could say this to anybody else from Wu or Wei, but you only chose Shu just because generally Shu was the weaker force out of the three. That doesn't go to say that everyone in Shu were basically crap and over-rated, does it? I could go on about how Shu seemed the weaker out of Wei, Wu and Shu, but we're talking about Zhao Yun here.

And Ma Zhi Xuan is right, if you don't bother to read other's arguements about your views, how on earth are you going to know exactly how to counter our views?

[Lady Wu]

Well, LGZ *did* exaggerate Shu officer's achievements, attributing to them deeds that were not recorded of them in history (or even taking away other people's credit, like how Guan Yu took credit for Hua Xiong's death even though historicaly Sun Jian was responsible).

But Zhao Yun was definitely not a bodyguard. For one thing, he did not hang out with Xuande all the time--he was left in Jingzhou when Liu Bei took Yizhou, and was given separate commands (unlike Dian Wei).