About how many men did Cao Cao have, and lose, at Chibi?

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About how many men did Cao Cao have, and lose, at Chibi?

Unread postby Liu Bei of Shu » Tue May 25, 2004 9:10 pm

Its been driving me nuts, but how many men (Aprox) did Cao Cao HAVE and LOSE @ Red Wall (Chi'Bi).
And how many men is a Legion?

Thanks
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Tue May 25, 2004 9:28 pm

This question is better off in the SGYY Symposium forum...
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Wed May 26, 2004 2:57 am

Taking Carp's advice, I'm moving this thread to SGYY Symposium and the mods there can decide whether its an appropriate topic or not.
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Unread postby didier » Wed May 26, 2004 7:36 am

Depends what actual troops you believe he came with, be it a million, 800 thousand, 200 thousand or less. You can get these reports from a variety of sources, but however many he attacked Chi Bi with, he lost the majority. They died, in the fires, by drowning, being killed as they escaped, or were captured.
I suggest you search through the question topic, or do a search, coz this has been talked about many a time before.
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Wed May 26, 2004 2:47 pm

Well Cao Cao historically has about 200000-300000 troops at Chibi. SGZ points to disease and a fire attack being the main reasons of retreat. According to the bios, half are dead by the time Cao Cao retreats to Nanjun. So between Chibi and his flight to Nanjun, he loses about 100000-150000 troops. However the number of troops that acutally fought would be hard to tell, as that those figures for troops probably include cooks, doctors etc the essentials that keep an army going
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed May 26, 2004 9:52 pm

I've never seen those half died sources.

Cao Cao had around 230000 men with him.I figure he would have lost about 15% or so in the fire attack at best and in the chaos of the retreat.
The real damage was the epidemic at Nanjun.
The final number simply cannot be over 50%.Of that I'm fairly certain.Losses on theat scale are waay too much.
I'd guess that the epidemic took about 25-30% from him with final losses being about 40-45% or between 90-100K.

Though when I look at this even it seems way too overinflated.
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Unread postby Li Zhen » Thu May 27, 2004 1:27 pm

I never heard of an epidemic, and can't believe the fire attack was so ineffective. Cao Cao's 'adventures' at the Huarong Valley must have been exaggerated too in the novel.

It says in SGYY that '...an incalculable number of men were lost...', which I suppose could be any amount.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Thu May 27, 2004 8:38 pm

Xu Chao wrote:I never heard of an epidemic, and can't believe the fire attack was so ineffective. Cao Cao's 'adventures' at the Huarong Valley must have been exaggerated too in the novel.

It says in SGYY that '...an incalculable number of men were lost...', which I suppose could be any amount.


I was talking historically btw.
In history,the reason Cao Cao finally retreated is that when he fell back to Nanjun,his army was ravaged by an epidemic that killed his troops en masse so he retreated to Xuchang.

The entire loess can't be too big otherwise it would leave Wei as a broken state.As it is I estimated 45%.A 45% loss in battle is enormous just to note.Generally the loss of 15-20% of a force is enough to call for a retreat.
The worst loss I've ever heard of is the 177 Latter Han campaign against the Xianbi where there was a 75% loss by Han forces.But that event was a first in 100 years.
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Unread postby General_Zhaoyun » Fri May 28, 2004 7:13 am

I say number isn't really important but it's estimated to be 200,000 I guess, from the 700 000 troops that stationed at Chang Jiang River...during the battle of ChiBi.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Sat May 29, 2004 4:01 pm

I've just turned the thread on Army Sizes into the official discussion thread for all questions of army size and numbers, so all future discussion of Cao Cao's numbers and losses at Chibi should be posted there.

Army Sizes: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=8299

For the sake of reference, here are some more threads dealing with Cao Cao's numbers and losses at Chibi, or will numbers in general:

Could Cao Cao Win at Chibi? http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=8333
Cao Cao's Greatest Defeat? http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=8409
Cao Cao's Loss at Chibi: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=172
Battle of Chibi Statistics: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=7293
Numbers: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=3298
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