football11f wrote:If Yuan Shao did this he would be whiped off the planet simply because Yuan Shao didn't have the same quality of generals, the generals that kept Wei alive after Chi Bi. Yuan Shao did not have these types of generals.
Perhaps Sun Quan would then be the one who won out in the end
Sima Hui wrote:Heh, you should have seen the internal mess when Yuan Shao was around. Shen Pei, Pang Ji, Xu You etc Never mind when Tan and Shang were around!
I think Liu Bei would have won. Yuan's indesciveness would have ruined him in the end...
football11f wrote:Yuan Shao died of grief from the Battle of Guan Du and if he had won that probuably wouldn't have happened.
I think many of Cao Cao's officers were so loyal to Cao Cao that they wouldn't have served Yuan Shao including the Xiouhu's, Cao Ren, Zhang Lio and Xu Zhu. I think Hua Xiong would have been the only notable one that may have turned.
Sun Quan would have a better chance of winning than Liu Bei. Liu Bei wasn't even a nation until Sun Quan gave him territory with the hope of help against Cao Cao. If Yuan Shao was decisively defeated by Sun Quan then why would Sun Quan have needed Liu Bei?
Hua Xiong was an officer of Dong Zhuo's,killed in battle with Yuan Shu's forces under Sun Jian.
Also you seem to forget that Wu forces have never beaten a northern army outside of their preferred fighting arena.How are they gonna fight in the north without good cavalry?
Yuan Shao could build boats but you can't breed a mounted force in the south.
Sun Quan could never take the north without help.Note also that with Cao Cao dead,Sun Quan would be stuck facing Liu Biao for Jingzhou,who would have Xuande and co under him.Not to mention that Liu Biao was allied with Yuan Shao in the first place.Can you say Sun-sandwich?
While Yuan Shao may be indecisive,the fact is that the other lords of the land are not exactly military geniuses either and so his indecisiveness won't cost him as dearly as it costed him when he went up against a bonafide genius like Cao Cao.
Sun Quan had many opportunities to win He Fei and blew them each time. Sun Quan himself was a nincompoo at times.
Ya, Cao Cao built boats too and that worked out well...lol.
I'm thinking Liu Biao would not have been allied to Yuan Shao after Yuan Shao conquers the north. I mean, you have the entire north subdued and a 500,000 man army ready to attack you. I'm thinking Liu Biao would have allied with Sun Quan to counter Yuan Shao.
I think that any ruler, if they listened to their advisors like Cao Cao, would be decent military commanders. Cao Cao was indeed very smart, however he wouldn't have gotten far on many occasions without the advice of others. Sun Quan listened to Zhuge Liang and Zou Yu at Chi Bi and look what happened.
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