Sun Jian (history)

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Sun Jian (history)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat May 08, 2004 8:38 pm

I was looking at some of Sun Jian's SGZ (i say some because it is so freakin long i had to just skim over it). From what i gathered he was an amazng general who's main talent was getting his troops to do what he wanted. An excellent example of this is when Sun Jian was defeated by Xu Rong and managed to reorganize his troops quickly to launch a successful counter attack before Xu Rong was able to even think about setting up a decent defense against him. Also the way that Sun Jian was able to achieve so much success against the numericily superior forces of Dong Zhou while only using the troops that he raised and the troops that Yuan Shu gave him.

The thing is however, I don't see Sun Jian ever becoming a real warlord. It seemed to be that while he was governor of Chang Sha he just was satisfied there and after that he served Yuan Shu loyaly. If he didn't die against Huang Zu's forces near Xiang Yang i think that he would have just fought to spead Yuan Shu power.

What do you all think about this?

Sun Jian's SGZ bio is here in case you want to look at it before responding.
http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decr ... os_ch2.pdf
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun May 09, 2004 4:20 am

Sun Jian didn't have what it took to become a warlord I think.Though he had followers and ability as far as military was concerned he obviously didn't have the guts to put it all on the line as a warlord evidenced by how meekly he accepts changes in Jingzhou and goes to serve Yuan Shu.
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Unread postby Elemental » Sun May 09, 2004 4:41 am

I don't think Sun Jian was in the right time to become a warlord. In his time, he governed a small and trivial province, and though strong, the land was divided among many powers. I think the announciation of Cao Cao's and Wei's growing power began to eliminate the weaker nobles, and that is when Shu, and Wu stood out. However, Sun Jian did not live to see the grand power of Wei, and never got a chance to conquer other provinces.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun May 09, 2004 5:22 am

Elemental wrote:I don't think Sun Jian was in the right time to become a warlord. In his time, he governed a small and trivial province, and though strong, the land was divided among many powers. I think the announciation of Cao Cao's and Wei's growing power began to eliminate the weaker nobles, and that is when Shu, and Wu stood out. However, Sun Jian did not live to see the grand power of Wei, and never got a chance to conquer other provinces.


Sun Jian never really seemed interested in ruling any real land. While he did control Chang Sha which at that time was an important district he only really seemed to want to beat the crap out of bandits. He never showed himself to be a particularly talented administrater (not a bad one but nothing impressive). Sun Jian was a great military officer not a ruler. he never challenged the imperial inspecter of Jing for his rule and seemed satisfied controlling an administrator working under the governor.

When the alliance formed Sun Jian willingly gave up his post at Chang Sha to serve Yuan Shu who was a relativly important man at the time. Sun Jian had the capablity to be an amazing officer that could do great things for his lord, he wasn't the kind of person who could carve out his own piece of the empire.

Personally i think that if he lived longer he would have made Yuan Shu a force to be feared. You can see a radical change in Yuan Shu after Jian's death. Before Sun Jian died Shu was expanding scoring victories against his brother Shao and almost brinigng Jing to it's knees. When Sun Jian died Yuan Shu lost his will to expand. When he did try he met with failure against people like Cao Cao and Lu Bu (he was able to beat Lu Bu when Sun Jian served him). Yuan Shu's main assets were Sun Jian, Jian's troops and family. Once he lost these things then Yuan Shu became crappy, this shows the importance and skill of Sun Jian.

Sun Jian was an amazing front line general who was almost unbeatable in battle, unfortuantly his second( i believe it was his second) defeat cost him his life.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun May 09, 2004 4:59 pm

You really overestimate Sun Jian's worth to Yuan Shu.It was quite easy for Yuan Shu to expand when he's only dealing with second rate warlords all the time.It's another matter when he wants to come really play in the north.
With Sun Jian Yuan Shu might take Yang but it's an open question whether Sun Jian will then even remain loyal but even if he does,Yuan Shu will eventually declare himself Emperor,inviting the Right Hand of Judgement to come crashing down on him and utterly vanquishing his forces.Sun Jian living longer would probably just mean a death blow to his clan.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sun May 09, 2004 5:14 pm

Exar Kun wrote:You really overestimate Sun Jian's worth to Yuan Shu.It was quite easy for Yuan Shu to expand when he's only dealing with second rate warlords all the time.It's another matter when he wants to come really play in the north.
With Sun Jian Yuan Shu might take Yang but it's an open question whether Sun Jian will then even remain loyal but even if he does,Yuan Shu will eventually declare himself Emperor,inviting the Right Hand of Judgement to come crashing down on him and utterly vanquishing his forces.Sun Jian living longer would probably just mean a death blow to his clan.


Perhaps but if Sun Jian had lived then Yuan Shu would be much stronger. Sun Jian was close to taking Xiang Yang. Most likely had Sun Jian captured the city he would have lived long enough for Shu to take the rest of Jing and perhaps Yang. If Yuan Shu had controlled the Yu, Jing and Yang proviences then he would also get a huge army and many talented officers. Sun Jian was very important to get those things. After that he wouldn't be nearly as important, the fact that Sun Jian gave the imperial Seal (i am pretty sure he turned it over) to Yuan Shu i doubt that he would betray Shu when Shu decalred himself emperor. With all that power i have a hard time seeing Cao Cao (with only Yan at most) and Yuan Shao (with Ji at most) being able to stop him. Yuan Shao already proved himself to be unable to best his brother in battle so i don't know, things might have tured out quite diffrently had Sun Jian lived.
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Unread postby King_Ilze » Mon May 10, 2004 2:51 am

I beleive it would all depend on how long Sun Jian lived. I found Sun Jian to be a great leader who had exactly what it took to be a warlord but the time at which he lived made it hard for him to succeed that way.

Elemental wrote:
Sun Jian didn't have what it took to become a warlord I think.Though he had followers and ability as far as military was concerned he obviously didn't have the guts to put it all on the line as a warlord evidenced by how meekly he accepts changes in Jingzhou and goes to serve Yuan Shu.


I beleive Sun Jian had plenty of guts. Even in the beginning of his career when he scared off pirates alone. Sun Jian didnt just stay far away and shout threats to them, he drew his sword and marched over to their location.

Sun Jian had the brains and the brawn to exceed several warlords that lived after his time. If Jian hadnt died so young and had lived to a old age, I think he would have become a strong warlord.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon May 10, 2004 3:30 am

King_Ilze wrote:I beleive it would all depend on how long Sun Jian lived. I found Sun Jian to be a great leader who had exactly what it took to be a warlord but the time at which he lived made it hard for him to succeed that way.

Elemental wrote:
Sun Jian didn't have what it took to become a warlord I think.Though he had followers and ability as far as military was concerned he obviously didn't have the guts to put it all on the line as a warlord evidenced by how meekly he accepts changes in Jingzhou and goes to serve Yuan Shu.


I beleive Sun Jian had plenty of guts. Even in the beginning of his career when he scared off pirates alone. Sun Jian didnt just stay far away and shout threats to them, he drew his sword and marched over to their location.

Sun Jian had the brains and the brawn to exceed several warlords that lived after his time. If Jian hadnt died so young and had lived to a old age, I think he would have become a strong warlord.


That is assuming that he would become a warlord. Sun Jian was a general under Yuan Shu. Yuan Shu would either have to dismiss Sun Jian or Jian would have to run away in order to become his own warlord.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon May 10, 2004 8:56 pm

Sun Jian had the territory, and the forces, but he didn't have the background to become an independent warlord. The other "warlords" would of banded together against such an "upstart" in their midst. He needed the support of one such as Yuan Shu. However, had he lived longer, he likely would of been able to pull something similar to what Sun Ce did.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon May 10, 2004 11:54 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Sun Jian had the territory, and the forces, but he didn't have the background to become an independent warlord. The other "warlords" would of banded together against such an "upstart" in their midst. He needed the support of one such as Yuan Shu. However, had he lived longer, he likely would of been able to pull something similar to what Sun Ce did.


After Sun Jian joined Yuan Shu he didn't have any territory of his own. Everything he controlled belonged to Yuan Shu. There is also little to no evidence that he planned to separate from Yuan Shu to start his own bid for power. For all we know he could have been perfectly satisfied being a subordinite officer.
Liu Bei didn't have the background to become a warlord but did when he got Xia Pi. He claimed to be an imperial relative but it is doubtful that many believed him.
Sun Ce is a bad example as well since Sun Ce was nobody and no one really tried to stop him from taking over land...except for the people he was attackng and they don't count in that regard. Sun Ce was the son of a general of Yuan Shu, that doesn't grant him much.
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