Elemental wrote:I don't think Sun Jian was in the right time to become a warlord. In his time, he governed a small and trivial province, and though strong, the land was divided among many powers. I think the announciation of Cao Cao's and Wei's growing power began to eliminate the weaker nobles, and that is when Shu, and Wu stood out. However, Sun Jian did not live to see the grand power of Wei, and never got a chance to conquer other provinces.
Exar Kun wrote:You really overestimate Sun Jian's worth to Yuan Shu.It was quite easy for Yuan Shu to expand when he's only dealing with second rate warlords all the time.It's another matter when he wants to come really play in the north.
With Sun Jian Yuan Shu might take Yang but it's an open question whether Sun Jian will then even remain loyal but even if he does,Yuan Shu will eventually declare himself Emperor,inviting the Right Hand of Judgement to come crashing down on him and utterly vanquishing his forces.Sun Jian living longer would probably just mean a death blow to his clan.
Sun Jian didn't have what it took to become a warlord I think.Though he had followers and ability as far as military was concerned he obviously didn't have the guts to put it all on the line as a warlord evidenced by how meekly he accepts changes in Jingzhou and goes to serve Yuan Shu.
King_Ilze wrote:I beleive it would all depend on how long Sun Jian lived. I found Sun Jian to be a great leader who had exactly what it took to be a warlord but the time at which he lived made it hard for him to succeed that way.
Elemental wrote:Sun Jian didn't have what it took to become a warlord I think.Though he had followers and ability as far as military was concerned he obviously didn't have the guts to put it all on the line as a warlord evidenced by how meekly he accepts changes in Jingzhou and goes to serve Yuan Shu.
I beleive Sun Jian had plenty of guts. Even in the beginning of his career when he scared off pirates alone. Sun Jian didnt just stay far away and shout threats to them, he drew his sword and marched over to their location.
Sun Jian had the brains and the brawn to exceed several warlords that lived after his time. If Jian hadnt died so young and had lived to a old age, I think he would have become a strong warlord.
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Sun Jian had the territory, and the forces, but he didn't have the background to become an independent warlord. The other "warlords" would of banded together against such an "upstart" in their midst. He needed the support of one such as Yuan Shu. However, had he lived longer, he likely would of been able to pull something similar to what Sun Ce did.
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