A problem with the footnotes (Yang Xiu)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

A problem with the footnotes (Yang Xiu)

Unread postby Song Jiang » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:05 pm

yang xiu, according to the footnotes, is a traitor to Cao. He says that he deserved what was cming to him. his execution, and that the blame cant be put on Cao, if u havent read this, it is in the footnotes of book 3. But i dont see how this works at all. He never rebvells against cao, or doesnt do what hte note says, can soemone explain this to me please.
When i sit in class at school, and people dont know the difference between Teddy and Roosevelt and FDR, it makes me sad, i almost want to cry.
Song Jiang
Initiate
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:09 am
Location: The marsh of course.

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:28 pm

Well Yang Xiu was a potential threat to Cao Cao. Perhaps whoever wrote the note was biased? Which note are you talking about? SGYY, SGZ? Who wrote the note?
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:18 am

Traitor might be a bit harsh a word to use but Yang Xiu sure as hell got what was coming to him.
Certainly his actions can be construed as an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the succession by assisting Cao Zhi he makes Cao Cao's trials into a farce as the mind of Cao Zhi is not tested,rather only the mind of Yang Xiu.
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Iain » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:34 am

I think that Cao Pi set Yang Xiu up nicely though by covering up his own deceptions better and getting Cao Cao to mistrust Yang Xiu moreso.
(From Romance of the Three Kingdoms Chapter 72)
When Cao Cao was considering the nomination of his heir and desired to name Cao Zhi, Cao Pi got to hear of the proposal to set him aside in favor of his younger brother, so he secretly requested the Master of the Court Singers, Wu Zhi, to come and discuss this matter. Then fearing that someone might see his visitor, Cao Pi got a large basket made, in which his friend was smuggled into the Palace. Cao Pi gave out that the basket contained rolls of silk. Yang Xiu heard the truth and informed Cao Cao, who sent guards to watch at the gates.
Cao Pi, in alarm, told Wu Zhi, who said, "Be not afraid, but to fill a basket actually with rolls of silk on the morrow and have it carried in as before."
The searchers peeped into the basket and found the rolls of silk. They told Cao Cao the result of their search, and Cao Cao began to think Yang Xiu was plotting against his son. This also added to his hatred.
And incidentally what is so wrong with Cao Zhi learning how to answer questions properly, is this being 'coached' or merely 'educated?'
Yang Xiu also used to coach Cao Zhi in preparing replies to likely questions, which were learned by heart and quoted when necessary. Cao Cao was always asking this son his opinion on military matters, and Cao Zhi always had a fluent reply ready. His father was not without suspicions, which were turned into certainties when Cao Pi gave his father the written replies which Cao Pi had bribed a servant to filch from his brother's apartments. Cao Cao was quite angry.
"How dare he throw dust in my eyes like this?" said Cao Cao.
Sounds to me like Cao Pi had it in for his brother, and wanted to remove the competition really.
User avatar
Iain
Lord of Nanchang
 
Posts: 4754
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:55 am
Location: Lost in the fun world of Vana'diel.

Unread postby Song Jiang » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:48 am

it is a comment by Mao, i mean, it makes some sense, but i think it is a little harsh, sayin that the he should be blamed for his own death, and that Cao Cao is not at fault at all. A little extreme to me.
When i sit in class at school, and people dont know the difference between Teddy and Roosevelt and FDR, it makes me sad, i almost want to cry.
Song Jiang
Initiate
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:09 am
Location: The marsh of course.

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:04 am

The way I perceive it from SGZ, DynastyIain, is that Cao Zhi didn't know any of the answers, and simply memorized them word by word so that he could recite them. That doesn't mean that he actually had the ability to interpret what he was reciting of course.
It was wrong for Yang Xiu to do that, simply because it was Cao Pi'd right as second in line (Cao Ang was dead) to succeed the throne. If Yang Xiu's aim was to educate Cao Zhi, he would have done it in a less conspicuous way I think. Therefore I do believe that Yang Xiu was perhaps not a traitor, but a bit overconfident.
It would help if the actual note we are talking about would be posted (in chinese or english, doesn't matter).
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:19 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:The way I perceive it from SGZ, DynastyIain, is that Cao Zhi didn't know any of the answers, and simply memorized them word by word so that he could recite them. That doesn't mean that he actually had the ability to interpret what he was reciting of course.
It was wrong for Yang Xiu to do that, simply because it was Cao Pi'd right as second in line (Cao Ang was dead) to succeed the throne. If Yang Xiu's aim was to educate Cao Zhi, he would have done it in a less conspicuous way I think. Therefore I do believe that Yang Xiu was perhaps not a traitor, but a bit overconfident.


I don't think that Cao Pi had any actual 'right' to succeed.Tradition was behind him but Cao Cao declared the matter open for his own analysis.
I think the problem of Yang Xiu is that he directly interferes with Cao Cao's trials.
Befriending or teaching Cao Zhi is no problem,the guy needs to leanr,but helping him cheat the system is interfering with the royal succession.

Hell they might even say he was a traitor because he was trying to put Wei into ruin by putting a drunk on the throne. :lol:
"Two there should be; no more, no less.
One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
-Creed of the New Sith-
User avatar
Exar Kun
Dark Lord of the Sith
 
Posts: 3347
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:18 am
Location: Cruising the Nether

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:24 am

Remember this little chuckles from SGYY:
When Cao Cao consulted Jia Xu, he could not answer, when Cao Cao asked why he did not answer, Jia Xu responded: “I was thinking of two fathers, Yuan Shao and Liu Biao, and their sons”.
Novel wise, Cao Cao sought no good in chosing any other son than Cao Pi because it wasn't just a tradition that you could play around with. His contemporaries made mistakes with chosing an heir, so it would have been inauspicious for Cao Cao to make anyone but Cao Pi his heir. The right of the firstborn is a very ancient custom is a lot of cultures, and back then it was taken very seriously.
In SGZ, Cao Cao was simply too sad because Cao Zhi could not follow orders correctly and would rather drink away his time.
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby Iain » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:53 am

I always liked the 'Chicken Tendon' incident in the SGYY..
(From Romance of the Three Kingdoms Chapter 72)

After a great fight, Cao Cao ordered his army to retire into camp at the Xie Valley. Here he remained many days, prevented from advancing by Ma Chao and fearing the ridicule of Shu if he should retreat. One day, while he was anxiously trying to decide what to do, his cook sent in some chicken broth. He noticed in the broth some chicken tendons, and this simple fact led him into a train of reflection. He was still deep in thought when Xiahou Dun entered his tent to ask the watchword for that night.
Cao Cao at once involuntarily replied, "Chicken tendon."
The word was passed on in orders. When First Secretary Yang Xiu saw the order that the watchword was "chicken tendon," he told all his people to pack up their belongings ready for the march. One who saw this went and told Xiahou Dun, who sent for Yang Xiu and asked why he had packed up.
Yang Xiu replied, "By tonight's orders I see that the Prince of Wei is soon going to retire. 'Chicken tendons' are tasteless things to eat, and yet it is a pity to waste them. Now if we advance, we cannot conquer; and if we retire, we fear we shall look ridiculous. There being no advantage here, the best course is to retire. You will certainly see the Prince of Wei retreat before long. I have made my preparations so as not to be hurried and confused at the last moment."
"You seem to know the Prince's inmost heart," said Xiahou Dun, and he bade his servants pack. The other generals seeing this, also made preparations for departure.
Cao Cao's mind was too perturbed for sleep. In the night he got up, took a steel battle-ax in his hand, and wandered privily through the camp. When he got to Xiahou Dun's tents, he saw everything packed and ready for a move. Much surprised, he made his way back to his own tent and sent for that officer.
"Why is everything in your camp packed as if ready for the march?"
"First Secretary Yang Xiu seems to have private knowledge of the Prince's design to retire," said Xiahou Dun.
Cao Cao summoned Yang Xiu and questioned him, and Yang Xiu replied with the chicken tendon incident.
"How dare you invent such a story and disturb the hearts of my army?"
Cao Cao called in his lictors and told them to take Yang Xiu away and behead him and hang his head at the camp gate.
I always get a chuckle reading that part and picturing a very stiff Xiahou Dun standing beside all his packed bags, nervously eyeing that steel battle axe Cao Cao was carrying.
Yang Xiu was probably too smart for his own good but he seemed to be a very perceptive man really. Cao Cao did end up retreating there .
User avatar
Iain
Lord of Nanchang
 
Posts: 4754
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:55 am
Location: Lost in the fun world of Vana'diel.

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:12 pm

DynastyIain wrote:Yang Xiu was probably too smart for his own good.


And that is the case with many smart men. They know too much and because of that they are a threath to those in positions of power. The lessons here would be that when you're smart, make everyone else think otherwise and get a job as accountant. :wink:
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved