Liu Shan: Was he stupid?

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Unread postby Funkill » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:07 am

DO you think Liu CHan is a stupid one ?
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Unread postby Wanghui » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:57 am

Funkill wrote:DO you think Liu CHan is a stupid one ?


For his habit drink and play woman , listen to the evil eunuch, give his country to Jin, he can consider to be a stupid one
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:07 pm

Funkill wrote:DO you think Liu CHan is a stupid one ?


Stupid?I doubt that.Not in the sense that he's retarded or brain damaged as everyone says.
I think his problem was just indifference more than anything else.
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Unread postby Funkill » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:07 am

Exar Kun wrote:
Funkill wrote:DO you think Liu CHan is a stupid one ?


Stupid?I doubt that.Not in the sense that he's retarded or brain damaged as everyone says.
I think his problem was just indifference more than anything else.


Do you think the way he answered Sima Zhao's is a wise step to ensure his surviyor ? He said "Wei is happy, so, i do not want to go back to Shu." and he just coycat the whole conversation thought by his officer whithout tears.
Some said that he is a wise man which he cried without tears and made him looks stupid. What do you think ?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:00 pm

I do not believe that he was faking it.Liu Shan is without sublety or guile.
But that does not make him stupid,if anything it means he is simple.

His faults through his reign was his indifference to the affairs of state which is what caused him to party all the time with Huang Hao and to make uninformed decisions when Deng Ai came through the backdoor.
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Unread postby dry ice » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:01 pm

Wanghui wrote:
Funkill wrote:DO you think Liu CHan is a stupid one ?


For his habit drink and play woman , listen to the evil eunuch, give his country to Jin, he can consider to be a stupid one

Goodness. From what impression he has given me (either from books, the television series, or our Chinese history class), I'd say he's kind of stupid. And very, very lazy (but he's not retarded). He just practically doesn't care. Nor does he listen to Zhuge Liang (or maybe he listens but does not act), and, he cockfights all day too (at least thats what my teacher says :wink: ).

In one way or another, he threw away, without a second thought, whatever Liu Bei and the other Shu generals have given their lives for (thats like disgracing Shu, in some way). Its kind of sad really. Sometimes I'd rather that Zhao Yun didn't risk his life for someone this unworthy (he couldn't have known this then anyway). Then again, maybe its just me. 8-)
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:49 pm

I split this topic away from the Three Kingdoms Questions thread, because there is a lot more potential for discussion on this issue than one or two quick posts could accomplish.

So, is Liu Shan just plain stupid? Koei sure seems to think so.
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Unread postby Bryan » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:29 pm

Well, like Exar Kun, I believe that Liu Shan was more of a simple man, who had simple desires. Besides, on the grounds that he was stupid because he gave in to temptation and attempted to fulfill those desires (his desire for a close group of "friends" (the eunuchs and others who had his ear and trust), his desire to sate his for women and his thirst for drink). I wouldn't call him stupid, though. I think that he just wasn't fit to rule Shu, especially since that position gave him all the opportunity and power he needed to accomplish these simple desires. As Liu Shan came into such a position, I think it was only natural for him to neglect the duties of state, especially since he probably felt that his underlings/manipulators were capable of running Shu, with his permission, of course.
Wanghui wrote:give his country to Jin, he can consider to be a stupid one
I've thought about that one too... was he really all that stupid in surrendering Shu to Wei? (Shan surrendered around the year AD 264; Wei wasn't renamed Jin until around or after the year AD 265) I mean, let's think about it. If he had continued the resistance of Shu against Wei, what good would that have done him, or Shu, anyways? The Northern Campaigns against Wei had pretty much failed and Zhuge Liang was gone, so continuing that battle would have just ruined Shu even more than the Northern Campaigns into Wei had, both in resources and in manpower, and Shan himself might not have been treated as he was if he had not surrendered. Heck, even had Zhuge Liang still been alive, I don't believe that Shu could have stood a chance for long, personally. So was it really that stupid to surrender? Call it cowardice, or whatever you like, for that matter, but I think that when Liu Shan surrendered to Deng Ai, although probably not for the most righteous of reasons, it more than likely spared Shu from any further potential losses that would have occured had he not surrendered. Does this make any sense at all?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:52 pm

That same argument Bryan can be made for all three kingdoms at any point.
Given the very slim possibility Wu and Shu ever had to conquering Wei your logic would dictate that you think Quan and Bei should have surrendered also.
This would probably be best for the realm but who is to say that just because he's bigger,Cao Cao deserves to rule all?

They deserve their chance at trying to ensure a victory for their philosophy.
If Liu Shan surrendering in 263 was a good thing then he might as well have surrendered in 234 as nothing much has changed since then.

Personally though I think he was a fool for surrendering.Deng Ai could have never taken any cities with his small force,they just needed to buckle down,wait for Zhong Hui to go home then smash Deng Ai.
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One to embody the power, the other to crave it."
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:11 pm

Kong Wen wrote:I split this topic away from the Three Kingdoms Questions thread, because there is a lot more potential for discussion on this issue than one or two quick posts could accomplish.

So, is Liu Shan just plain stupid? Koei sure seems to think so.
:lol: I like how people use the terms ah dou in present days now. ah dou means Liu Shan
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