Huang Zhong's Age

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Huang Zhong's Age

Unread postby King_Ilze » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:12 am

How old did Huang Zhong really live to be? I heard he was fighting up til the age of 60. I personally dont think this was true.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:24 am

Unfortunately, his real age was not mentioned at all in the historical accounts: http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?p=171231#171231
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Unread postby Xiahou Ji » Sat May 01, 2004 3:26 am

Acutally when I read SGZ - Shu Book - Chapter 11 - Fei Shi's Bio, it said when Liu Bei became "Han Zhong Wang", Liu Bei sent Fei Shi to tell Guan Yu that his rank was raised as "Qian Jiang Jun" ("Front" General), Guan Yu was so mad because at the same time Huang Zhong received the rank of "Hou Jiang Jun" ("Back" General), Guan Yu said, "A man (refering to himself) never receive the same rank as an old soldier!" I think by the time Liu Bei became "Han Zhong Wang", Guan Yu must be at least 40 - 50 years old at that time. And he actually refer Huang Zhong as old, I think there must be at least a 10-20 years age range between them.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat May 01, 2004 4:04 am

Xiahou Ji wrote:Acutally when I read SGZ - Shu Book - Chapter 11 - Fei Shi's Bio, it said when Liu Bei became "Han Zhong Wang", Liu Bei sent Fei Shi to tell Guan Yu that his rank was raised as "Qian Jiang Jun" ("Front" General), Guan Yu was so mad because at the same time Huang Zhong received the rank of "Hou Jiang Jun" ("Back" General), Guan Yu said, "A man (refering to himself) never receive the same rank as an old soldier!" I think by the time Liu Bei became "Han Zhong Wang", Guan Yu must be at least 40 - 50 years old at that time. And he actually refer Huang Zhong as old, I think there must be at least a 10-20 years age range between them.

Aie! Thank you for that quote! I keep remembering the phrase "old soldier" is somewhere in SGZ, but I thought it was Fei Yi instead of Fei Shi (and thus couldn't find it)... :oops:

I'm not convinced that "old" should be taken literally here. Sun Quan called Cao Cao "old traitor" in the discussion with Zhou Yu before Chibi (SGZ: Zhou Yu's bio, Wu:9), and Cao Cao was only 53, not *really* old. My theory is that "lao bing" ("old soldier") was just a common insult. In SGZ: Shu book 10, Peng Yang's biography had Peng Yang in a conversation with Ma Chao referring to Liu Bei as "old hide", and a Pei note argues that "lao ge" = "lao bing". My speculation is that "lao bing" just refers to someone who's been in the army for a long time but doesn't have what it takes to be called "lao jiang" ("old general"). Even if age does decide whether you can use this insult or not, the fact that Cao Cao at 53 can be called "lao zei" suggests that it is also possible for Huang Zhong to be 53 at that time, which would mean that it's possible that Huang Zhong wasn't any older than Guan Yu/Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Xiahou Ji » Sat May 01, 2004 4:42 am

I see your point, "lao anything" could be an insult. But Zhou Yu and Sun Quan are about 20 years younger than Cao Cao, that why they refered him as "Lao Zei". If Cao Cao was their age group, I think Zhou Yu and Sun Quan would probably refered them as "Xiao Zei" (small thief, thief right ?) If it was Liu Bei, he would probably call him "Han Zei" instead of "Lao Zei". I think you don't usually call someone around your age group "Lao".
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat May 01, 2004 7:16 am

Xiahou Ji wrote: I think you don't usually call someone around your age group "Lao".

Hmm... I can actually come up with a bunch of counterexamples:
"lao gong/lao po": "hubby/wife" :lol:
"lao you": "old friend" (used more frequently in Cantonese)
"lao xiong/lao di": "brother" (used more frequently in Mandarin)
"lao pengyou": "long-time friend", not necessarily advanced in age
etc etc...

Actually, in SGZ Wei:10, Pei note under the paragraph on Xun Yu's death, there's a passage from the Xiandi Chunqiu which has Liu Bei say "If the Old Traitor doesn't die, turmoil will never cease." Of course, it is debatable whether Xiandi Chunqiu is a reliable source (Pei himself doubts it), but it seems felicitous for Liu Bei to call Cao Cao lao zei even though Cao is only 6 years Liu's senior. :lol:

But yeah, I agree with you, that there's gotta be some age level when you start to become Old Traitors and Old Soldiers rather than young ones. :lol:
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Unread postby twiztidscholar45 » Mon May 03, 2004 11:30 pm

i think the book gives some perception , but i think its over exaggerated, because the food wasnt all that good back then because of sanitaion, and also disease was unable to be treated so the life exspectancey is low, and with the aging process, no matter if you worked out or stayed in shape the aging of bones and joints would slow him , my opionion is he was only 50
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue May 04, 2004 3:19 am

Well, Liao Po from the Warring States period (about 500-600 years before Huang Zhong?) was still a fighting general at the age of 80. So it's not unreasonable that Huang Zhong should be the age the book gives him... it's just that we don't know for sure.
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Unread postby master Zhou Tai » Sun May 16, 2004 2:05 pm

i think he did fight to 60, but what i find amazing is that Ding Feng served Wu for 70 years
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Unread postby Jiang Qin » Wed May 19, 2004 7:11 am

When you say Ding Feng it reminds me about a question i longed to ask .

Why in Generals of the South, there are so little about Ding Feng. By the year he serves Wu for so long , he deserves a part for his story.

Anyway, anyone got info on him ?

In the novel, i came to noe that he's a good partner of Xu Sheng.
If im not mistaken.
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