Liu Bei taking of Yi

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Liu Bei taking of Yi

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:02 pm

Liu Bei was invited into Yi in order to prevent an invasion of Yi by Zhang Lu. After seeing Liu Bei bring his troops into Yi Zhang Lu reconsidered his attack. While waiting for an invasion Liu Bei gathered support from the local population. After finding out the plot from Zhang Song's brother in law (i think it was the brother in law) Liu Zhang closed off the passes and in response Liu Bei attacked Liu Zhang and forces a surrender over a year later. The help from the inside was very little and mainly was just to get him inside Liu Zhang's territory though that was extreemly important.

Liu Bei came into the provence desiring to take it over but only did it when Liu Zhang made the first move. Does this in any way make Liu Bei's actions any more noble or is it still blatant betrayal? Personally i think that Liu Bei came in there with deception in his heart even though Liu Zhang made the first move he was planning on taking the provence anyway so it shouldn't justify his actions.

What do you think. Did Liu Zhang's actions make Liu Bei's less wrong?
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Unread postby Master Zhuge Liang » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:15 pm

I dunno, i would say Liu Bei Betrayed him because if he was put to prevent invaders then Liu Zhang shuts the gates, not letting them in, well what could Liu Bei do? if he stood around waiting he might get ambushed by Liu Zhang, i think he done the right thing. He prevented his own army getting ambushed, well if they was going to be. If Liu Zhang did keep the gates open then that wouldn't have happened. So i blame it on Liu Zhang, he really made Liu Bei retaliate. But thats what i think.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:46 pm

The betrayal was in Liu Bei's heart no doubt.

But the truth is that if Liu Zhang had just not closed the passes,Liu Bei might probably have just left in peace.
But then,one cannot blame Liu Zhang since he has just discovered a plot against him.

I think that Liu Bei's actions were wrong in the sense that he deceived Liu Zhang but I cannot consider his actions a real betrayal since they had no actual agreement.
Liu Zhang's conduct however,was rather stupid.He should have realized that Liu Bei and his commanders,despite being inside his territory,outclass him in every way.He should have just let Liu Bei leave and then fortified the passes leading in Yizhou so that Liu Bei simply couldn't come back again.Even better,he could have tried to broker a pincer strike on Liu Bei with Sun Quan,who on learning of Xuande's intentions of taking Yizhou I figure would be moved to striking.

Liu Zhang made his decisions too much with his emotions and not enough with strategy in his mind.Liu Bei on the other hand,came into Yizhou with an insurrection planned,postponed it,but had his hand forced by Liu Zhang's bad idea.

If Great Deer is reading this,I hope this is alright with you. :wink:
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:58 pm

Exar Kun wrote:But the truth is that if Liu Zhang had just not closed the passes,Liu Bei might probably have just left in peace.

Exar, Exar, Exar, you and I both know this isn't true. The possession of Yi was firmly entrenched in Zhuge Liang's mind from day one. He would have made sure that Liu Bei ended up there sometime, somehow.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:07 pm

Kong Wen wrote:Exar, Exar, Exar, you and I both know this isn't true. The possession of Yi was firmly entrenched in Zhuge Liang's mind from day one. He would have made sure that Liu Bei ended up there sometime, somehow.


Of course,the possession of Yizhou and Hanzhong was all part of the Longzhong plan but what I'm talking about is that particular occassion.
Liu Bei had business to deal with in Jingzhou and so it seems that he really was leaving to return another day.
Better to have to face him from without than have him inside your borders where he doesn't have to face frontier garrisons.Bei probably would have won this scenario also looking at his record but in Liu Zhang's mind,facing him from behind the mountains should seem better.Liu Bei could hardly ever be 'trapped' in Yizhou when he has ten thousand men with him.

Liu Bei had too many troops for Zhang to think that he had any chance holding him with such a foolish plan.If he had Zhang Ren and 30K troops ready for ambush then sure,but he didn't.He expected Liu Bei to docilely remain inside the passes,a mistake he paid dearly for.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:16 pm

With regards to your previous post:
Exar Kun wrote:I think that Liu Bei's actions were wrong in the sense that he deceived Liu Zhang but I cannot consider his actions a real betrayal since they had no actual agreement.

I pretty much agree with this judgement of Liu Bei's actions with relation to Liu Zhang. I don't really consider it a "betrayal" because I'm not sure that Liu Bei had any actual obligation to Liu Zhang. The fact that Liu Zhang made the first move is largely irrelevent because the two were going to duke it out anyway, so this initiation of the conflict has no effect on my perception of Liu Bei.

Actually Exar, I would even go so far as to say that calling Liu Bei's actions "wrong in the sense that he deceived Liu Zhang" is a bit of a stretch. When you're in Liu Bei's position and you're going in to get a chunk of land/territory from someone with whom you have only a vague connection, why is "deception" wrong? Was it "wrong" for the allied forces to deceive Cao Cao at Chibi? I would hesitate to call any of the Three Kingdoms military ambushes "wrong."
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Unread postby Master Zhuge Liang » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:22 pm

I thought he attacked Liu Zhang was just in retaliations and to gain more land and so he could rund the land in peace, well until Wu came and attacked Yi
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:23 pm

The reason that many consider this particular occasion wrong is twofold:
1)They were both of the Imperial family.
This is junk.Their relation is probably so fargone that if they had to act like blood relatives,Zhang Fei and Zhang Liao had might as well go to a mutual family reunion.

2)This is the major one,Liu Bei told Sun Quan when the latter wanted to invade that he could not allow that to happen to his kinsman.Then he attacks anyway when Wu decides against their own assault.

Well really I used to hold a stronger opinion on the second part in justifying Liu Bei via the fact that he did not actually attack first but holding such an opinion at Frontier Palace earned me the worst beatdown I've received in 3 years,at the hands of Great Deer.So I've mellowed somewhat since then.
Who says kingdom-ists can't change? :lol:
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Unread postby Master Zhuge Liang » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:28 pm

Well i've never liked Liu Bei, yes i liked him a bit - only because he was caring and loving to his people and officers, but other than that i disliked him. Did he actually order people to attack lands, or did Zhuge Liang, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei or Zhao Yun tell him to?
Was he like Cao Cao And Sun Jian and just attack because HE thought it was right and not get persuaded by their stratergists?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:30 pm

Well Zhuge Liang created the tripod plan so any attacks he made(save for Yi Ling) after he gained Zhuge Liang were at his behest.
But he had shown some strong moral convictions back when he was still in the north and basically ran his entire show.

This probably isn't the place for this anyway.
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