Lady Sun and Sun Jian

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Lady Sun and Sun Jian

Unread postby King_Ilze » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:22 am

What was the relationship between Sun Jian and Lady Sun like? I know they were father/daughter but I've been wondering how their relationship was. Someone told me Sun Jian had a better relationship with Lady Sun than with his other children. Is this true or is the relationship standards unknown?
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Unread postby The Sun Also Rises » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:48 pm

It's really quite possible they had barely any relationship at all.

Sun Jian died in 192 CE. Jian's eldest Ce was only 17. Quan was only 10 at that time. She was younger, meaning she was no more than 9 at the time of Jian's death. It's hard to develop a REAL relationship when the child is so young. By real I mean, Sun Jian playing with his daughter doesn't constitiute as an amazing relationship.

So I would say, the relationship is unknown but it really couldn't have been much.
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Unread postby TaiShang » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:44 pm

Well, that, and the fact that there were THREE Lady Sun's. Sun Jian had three daughters. The one who married Liu Bei, like The Sun Also Rises said, Sun Shang Xiang was no more than 9. That would make her probably Sun Yi's twin at the oldest.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:58 pm

However, the Lady Sun who married Liu Bei was probably the one that was born of Lady Wu, Sun Jian's legitimate wife. By the fact that the other two girls were married off to rather insignificant people, it would seem that they were born of Sun Jian's concubines. It is thus possible that Sun Jian had a better relationship with SSX (or Sun Ren or whatever you want to call her) than with the other two daughters, but not necessarily. I mean, it's not like Sun Jian had a lot of time to spend at home and play with his kids...

(BTW, it is possible to develop a great relationship with a young kid if the kid's mature and smart enough, see Cao Cao and Cao Chong.)
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Unread postby King_Ilze » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:53 am

Ah, yes. Sun Jian did die early in his children's life didnt he? I forgot all about that but I did know Ce was 17. I didnt know there was that much of a age diffrence. I had always thought Ce was 17, Quan was 15, and Ren was 14.

By Lady Sun I meant the daughter that was born by Lady Wu meaning SSX/Ren.

Well, thank you for the enlightement although it kinda depresses me because I thought they had a good relationship :cry:
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:26 am

The fact she was young does not mean they didn't have a great relationship...if Lady Wu does not mind I'd like to quote from her translation of Cao Pi's autobiograophy:
At that time I was five years old. The Lord my father [Cao Cao], concerned with the disorder in the world, taught me how to use a bow. At six years of age I was capable at archery. He also taught me how to ride, and by the age of eight I was able to shoot from horseback. Since the world was in such disarray, every time my father went on a military expedition, I would follow him


While not of the Sun family it is fairly logical to assume that if Jian was a good father that he too taught his kids and played with them when he could at an early age.(He had a shorter life time to do so than Cao Cao but Cao Cao had what..over 25 kids to have relationships with!..not to mention the wives, the battles, the travel, etc.) The fact she was influenced enough by the males in her family to enjoy weapons and to be more of a tough cookie if you will (I do believe it is true that some Wu generals did fear her..didn't they?)shows that they (father or brother(s) ) did have some effect on her..so her relationship probably were not too bad. I will concede that it could also mean she was trying to fit in with them (I have older brothers..way older; I know how it is) but again they must have had an okay relationship..if anything by the fact that she was allowed such things most women were not at that time period.(Like weapons in her room or armed handmaidens) To me that would suggest that she looked up to them and they respected her.

Anyway that is my good spin on the matter. :)
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Unread postby King_Ilze » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:58 am

Ah, that is a diffrent view and that actually made a lot of sense. Good explanation Cherry_Blossom.

Here is my view of this: (Which is quite similar)
Although Sun Jian was away quite often and Sun Ren was at a young age, their relationship was still very strong. I think Jian did have quite the affect on Ren's obsession with war and 'tomboyishness.' Although her brothers also may have had influence, I think the main thing would come from Jian since he is the father and the Wu leader. Also, Quan was still young as well so he probably wasnt too much of a idol. Although Jian was away often, I think he was home enough to get to know his children and I beleive he would spend much time with Ren because she is the youngest and his only girl(Besides the other two who were less significant.) Jian probably did play with his daughter and teach her the ways of war, much like Cao Pi and Cao Cao.

Well, thats all I got.
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Unread postby Wanghui » Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:04 am

King_Ilze wrote:Although Sun Jian was away quite often and Sun Ren was at a young age, their relationship was still very strong.


I wonder if Sun Jian is still alive, is there a possibility that Lady Sun will betray Liu Bei for Wu's own sake ? because in the novel she doesn't listen to her own brother and keep support Liu Bei
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:37 am

Well, if we're going to speculate, here's my proposal:

Lady Sun was a spoiled brat. Sun Jian spent whatever time he had at home with his older sons, making sure that they're learning the right stuff and are going to be able to carry on his work, and with Lady Wu (hey, they did have at least 5 kids together, despite all his time being away and leaving his family in Shouchun). Lady Sun inherited all the fiery characteristics of Sun Jian but wasn't tempered by a stable family environment (they moved around a lot during Lady Sun's childhood: Xiapi [Jiangbiao Zhuan from Sun Quan's SGZ bio] -> Shouchun [Jiangbiao Zhuan from Sun Ce's bio] -> Shu [Sun Ce's bio; this is not the Shu in the Riverlands] -> Qu'e [after Sun Jian's death; Sun Ce's bio] -> Jiangdu [Sun Ce's bio]). Lady Wu was probably busy with arranging the moves, taking care of the clan, etc, and didn't have as much time to take care of Lady Sun as she would have if she were a housewife staying in a stable household. Being of the same temperament as her father and her brothers Sun Ce and Sun Yi, Lady Sun wanted to do all the boys stuff, and there's no one to stop her. Thus she grew up a tomboy and terrorized the family. She had her maids trained in the martial arts because her brothers wouldn't play fight with her; this army of women also became a formidable presence in the Sun household.

When Liu Bei became a considerable force, Sun Quan wanted to make him his ally. He was also worried about his sister being entirely unmarriageable. So bingo!, he thought. Two birds with one stone! I'll marry my sister to Liu Bei, and Liu Bei would be family to me (whether he loves her or not), and I'll be rid of this brat! Thus the famous wedding took place, and Lady Sun was sent back with Liu Bei. However, since she was so arrogant and unrestrained [Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan, Zhao Yun's SGZ bio], and her maids so terrifying, Liu Bei would have nothing to do with her and left her in Jingzhou, guarded by Zhao Yun, while he went to do nasty work in the Riverlands.

This is my analysis from the history... in the novel, where she's actually a nice person, things may be different :P
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Unread postby King_Ilze » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:43 am

Lady Sun was a spoiled brat


Ah, very good opservation, Wu. Although I never really thought about it, it actually makes a lot of sense.

But I dont agree with your look on the Bei-Ren marriage. I thought Sun Ren's marriage to Liu Bei was a plot to kill Bei but they fell in love and escaped. After they got away, I suppose Quan tried to look at the bright side and was glad to get rid of the brat.
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