Zhou Yu attacking Yi was it possible?

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Unread postby RyoHazuki » Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:36 am

Six_and_Up wrote:hmm Wu's offensive record:
post Chibi: they spend ages taking Nanjun, much to the delight of Cao Cao, allowing him to recover from his losses.

the hefei campaigns: nuff said

lu xun and zhuge jin's campaign round the time of kongming's last campaign: they get beaten before retreating due to sickness

ding feng and zhuge jin attack xincheng: well they lost....

sun quan ordering an attack on yizhou: well shu fell, one shu commander held onto the city for dear life for months before Wei arrives and takes over the situation

and with Jingzhou, most of it wasnt Wu's. Wu gave Liu Bei one or two cities, Bei had to conqeur the rest by himself, without the help of Wu. There was a divison of Jingzhou after the first Jingzhou war, but i guess sun quan just couldn't be happy with jingzhou alone. He backstabs Shu and the one great opportunity of opening the gates of Wei from Fan.


Hehe I promise you I will that "record" much better when I have enough time on my hands,expect it sometime next week.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:44 pm

Lets try to keep this discussion friendly and on topic please.

I would still like to know how Wu would deal with the rocky terrain.
I would also like to know why Zhang Lu would suddenly trust these southerners not to backstab him.
With Wu overextending their forces how could they prevent a Wei invasion
How could Wu prevent an assult by Liu Bei. Liu Bei would have three actions possible to him. He could intercept Zhou Yu's task force in Jiang Ling and attempt to take the city. Besides that he could wait until Zhou Yu is in battle with Yi and if he is winning Liu Bei could sweep in and take the provence from the two tired forces (also just save Liu Zhang) The final path Liu Bei could take is to assume that Liu Zhang would win and take his entire army and assult Wu. This could work because their troops would be streached too thin, most of their forces would be tied up in attacking Yi and defending against Wei. There would only be a token force defending against an attack by Liu Bei mainly because compared to Cao Cao Liu Bei was not much threat.
How would Wu counter these threats while undertaking such a huge expedition?
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Unread postby RyoHazuki » Fri Apr 23, 2004 6:12 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Lets try to keep this discussion friendly and on topic please.

I would still like to know how Wu would deal with the rocky terrain.
I would also like to know why Zhang Lu would suddenly trust these southerners not to backstab him.
With Wu overextending their forces how could they prevent a Wei invasion
How could Wu prevent an assult by Liu Bei. Liu Bei would have three actions possible to him. He could intercept Zhou Yu's task force in Jiang Ling and attempt to take the city. Besides that he could wait until Zhou Yu is in battle with Yi and if he is winning Liu Bei could sweep in and take the provence from the two tired forces (also just save Liu Zhang) The final path Liu Bei could take is to assume that Liu Zhang would win and take his entire army and assult Wu. This could work because their troops would be streached too thin, most of their forces would be tied up in attacking Yi and defending against Wei. There would only be a token force defending against an attack by Liu Bei mainly because compared to Cao Cao Liu Bei was not much threat.
How would Wu counter these threats while undertaking such a huge expedition?


There wasnt anyone lashing out ;) It just gets heated on these boards.Its nice and healthy.

But remeber as Wu extend and stretch their force,they gain more power,more people etc. and it would take awhile for Shu and Wei to take a couple cities while also stretching thier own force.Zhou Yu was no idoit and he DID have a long run of battles as experience,He beat Cao Ren which shows his military prowess as a commander of troops and he did it well.

What I think Zhou Yu would do is have the army split into two,and break of into a neighbouring city ideally Shang Yong.From there build up into Yi recruiting new talent,raising sufficant supplies and soildiers etc. And then strike Yi when they are secure enough.I made a post awhile back that I dont think many people read (I understand its long as hell) keep in mind I aint Zhou Yu ;)

RyoHazuki wrote:Talented Cao Ren was but not too many victories to prove so.However he WAS talented and it does prove to some degree Zhou Yu's military prowess,also there was Sun Ce's reign in which Zhou Yu helped greatly and not just by providing plans for Sun Ce...besides I am pretty sure Zhou Yu would learned a thing or two from Sun Ce Himself.

As for the plan of taking Yi without the plan of kidnapping Liu Bei,Credit too Zhou Yu I think he would actually pull it off.Only problem would be,Liu Bei;Would he remain faithful to the alliance if yes,then Wu have additional reinforcments from Liu Bei.However I would dismiss this for it is very doubtful,someone would point out that Zhou Yu intends too take Yi and Liu Bei would be none too happy.But if Liu Bei doesnt stay faithful,Zhou Yu would most likey retreat back to Jing..But if Liu Bei does not attack then Zhou Yu could have Zhang Lu attack Fu,while providing supplies for the Wu army In which Fu would definately fall.

Now Cao Ren should be surrounded and an attack on Jiang Ling would mean the loss of Xiang Yang.Thus Cao Ren once again finds himself in a deeper hole with no chance of escape.So I think its safe too say Cao Ren Would not attack Jiang Ling,Shang Yong (Providing Zhou Yu captures it,that is) Maybe but not Jiang Xia.

Now the real challenge comes in,how would Zhou Yu take the rest of Yi without too many troops? Perhaps call for a treaty and gather his forces? I wouldnt dismiss the fact that Wu had enough troops for this task,as Sun Quan did approve of it and without enough troops what would be the point in taking Yi? However he may have been able too borrow troops from Zhang Lu and maybe coax Liu Bei into giving Wu some troops (through the alliance or perhaps through giving him more land) I think Zhou Yu would have borrowed troops from Liu Bei by giving him the land of Ba,providing Liu Bei's troops are enough too take Ba.And now Cheng Du would have to compete with two forces Wu and Liu Bei.

How would Wu gain Cheng Du rather than Liu Bei? personally I would convince Liu Bei too attack Cheng Du while Wu proceeds to Wu Du,Wu shall provide reinforcements however I would not bother marching too Wu Du and wait until both forces of Liu Zhang and Liu Bei have been diminished and step in hopefully destroying both forces,which would cause a rift in Southern Jing,however Liu Bei's forces are also streched and an attack would be meaningless.Finally marching too Wu Du.Zhou Yu an accomplished strategist and commander would most likey come up with something better though :P

Now I reliase Cao Cao would attack Jing or Yang rather than sit idly by as Zhou Yu takes Yi,but I am sure with Zhang Lu providing an alliance thus hopefully providing supplies for Wu then it is possible Wu could have taken Yi.Ofcourse,there are many things that could prevent this attempt on Yi but all I am suggesting is that Zhou Yu was definatley on too something,he was a man with a plan and wouldnt have brought forward the plan of conquering Yi without thinking about it.

:) Feel free too debate


PS:I read Zhou Yu's bio over and it seems he wanted Sun Yu to to ally with Ma Chao,its yet another long shot but I thought it would be worth putting out here
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Apr 23, 2004 7:34 pm

What reason did Zhang Lu have? Pleanty,mainly Zhang Lu was a small force and never really able too expand from where they were based,an alliance would seem like a good idea,who else would save them from an attack? Futhermore,who would know that the alliance is part of the plot to take Yi,other than Zhou Yu? I really doubt Zhou Yu walked up to Sun Quan one day and said "I wanna march to Yi" he would have spent alot of time thinking about it.Besides where else could Wu try too expand to? It would have been a worthy risk if they got there


Zhang Lu wants Yizhou as well.He is no fool and would realize that they'd only ally with him to get Yi for themselves.Zhang Lu has nothing to gain by helping them since Wu wants it all for themselves anyway.By allowing Wu to come in,Zhang Lu is baring his own belly to be slashed.

Wu's generals indepedant? I like to think its teamwork but yet,I dont really understand where your getting that Wu's generals were indepandant and I will look up on it.


I said they were not independent.

Wu's record of offensive Campaigns looks good too me,the biggest loss being He Fei which shamed Wu much like Yi Ling shamed Shu and Chi Bi Wei.Besides Wu didnt get to where they were from defensive techniques,you must remeber Sun Ce's reign in which he expanded Wu pretty quickly and under Sun Quan his success against Huang Zu.His Losses Sun Ce=Chen Deng and Sun Quan=Cao Cao other than that there next real offensive campaign would be against Yi.


Wu's offensive record awful.Aside from Su Ce's campaigna against those weak warlords and their backstabbing of Shu,Wu has never taken territory from someone on the level.They get hammered everytime they try.Even Nanjun,it took them a year!When the Wei army was in full retreat,unreifforced and demoralized.
Liu Bei on the other hand,expands successfully into Yizhou and a very impressive campaign to take Hanzhong,not counting his victories in Xu.

As for Wu's so called "back stab" techniques I'd like to hear some of them,keeping in mind that Shu got to Yi through pleanty of betrayl and even still it was Guan Yu who refused to give Jing back to Wu.The Conditions;Shu borrows Jing until they take Yi,Then Shu give back jing too Wu,everyone is happy But what happened; Shu takes Yi,they are happy however Guan Yu does not give back Jing.So what does that mean for Wu? After their kindness in habouring Liu Bei,and giving him a powerful city of Wu's this is how they are repaid? What would that mean for Wu? Now they may have two enimies,its just a matter of who Shu's next target would be;Most likely the weaker kingdom of Wu,however as Shu dissolves the conditions of the alliance,Wu attack what is rightfully thiers.You cant sugar top it and say something along the lines of Guan Yu was going to leave,because that was his last intention.


May I laugh please?Well I can't help it :lol: :lol: .
When exactly was this agreement made eh?There sure as hell is no Shu record of this agreeement.What does Wu think they are?A bank?How they gonna lend something they didn't even have?
As for that powerful city they gave,you think Liu Bei got it on credit?
Fact 1:Wu's screwed with Jiang Ling.They had no way to successfully defend it with Shu to the south and Wei the north.All their work was for nil.They had to retreat.
Fact 2:The same time Liu Bei gains Jiang Ling,Wu gains Jiang Xia.Considering Bei had Jiang Xia to begin with,I think it's easy to see a pattern.
So unless you have some sort of proof of this Jingzhou mortgage I suggest you space that argument."Sun Quan agreed to give Liu Bei Yangzhou in 230."
See?That meant as much as your lending agreement.

I agree with you the armies of Wu AND Wei were both in awe of Guan Yu but I also say as a man acclamied for being a match for 10,000 men he wasnt as useful as other warriors from both Shu AND Wu.


Why?Because he didn't go to Yizhou?His prowess is evident.
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Unread postby Wanghui » Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:00 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:How could Wu prevent an assult by Liu Bei. Liu Bei would have three actions possible to him. He could intercept Zhou Yu's task force in Jiang Ling and attempt to take the city. Besides that he could wait until Zhou Yu is in battle with Yi and if he is winning Liu Bei could sweep in and take the provence from the two tired forces (also just save Liu Zhang) The final path Liu Bei could take is to assume that Liu Zhang would win and take his entire army and assult Wu. This could work because their troops would be streached too thin, most of their forces would be tied up in attacking Yi and defending against Wei. There would only be a token force defending against an attack by Liu Bei mainly because compared to Cao Cao Liu Bei was not much threat.
How would Wu counter these threats while undertaking such a huge expedition?


I assume we should based on Liu Bei's SGZ bio that he'll intrercept Zhou Yu and eliminate other possibility, shouldn't we ?

I still have a confidence that the main problem for Zhou Yu is Liu Bei so he must concentrate to defeat Liu Bei first and take Southern Jingzhou and then he can build supply depot, train troops so this troop can fight in rocky terrain, recruit ex-Liu Bei's soldier and officer, get Huang Zhong and Wei Yan from Han Xuan maybe. If his position is stable and strong it's about time he could take Yi while he also can defend against Wei. To take Yi he can ally with Zhang Lu or maybe follow Liu Bei's path help Liu Zhang from Zhang Lu's threat and postion his army to Cheng Du
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:05 pm

Wanghui wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:How could Wu prevent an assult by Liu Bei. Liu Bei would have three actions possible to him. He could intercept Zhou Yu's task force in Jiang Ling and attempt to take the city. Besides that he could wait until Zhou Yu is in battle with Yi and if he is winning Liu Bei could sweep in and take the provence from the two tired forces (also just save Liu Zhang) The final path Liu Bei could take is to assume that Liu Zhang would win and take his entire army and assult Wu. This could work because their troops would be streached too thin, most of their forces would be tied up in attacking Yi and defending against Wei. There would only be a token force defending against an attack by Liu Bei mainly because compared to Cao Cao Liu Bei was not much threat.
How would Wu counter these threats while undertaking such a huge expedition?


I assume we should based on Liu Bei's SGZ bio that he'll intrercept Zhou Yu and eliminate other possibility, shouldn't we ?

I still have a confidence that the main problem for Zhou Yu is Liu Bei so he must concentrate to defeat Liu Bei first and take Southern Jingzhou and then he can build supply depot, train troops so this troop can fight in rocky terrain, recruit ex-Liu Bei's soldier and officer, get Huang Zhong and Wei Yan from Han Xuan maybe. If his position is stable and strong it's about time he could take Yi while he also can defend against Wei. To take Yi he can ally with Zhang Lu or maybe follow Liu Bei's path help Liu Zhang from Zhang Lu's threat and postion his army to Cheng Du


While the defeat of Liu Bei would be the best thing for Zhou Yu to do in theory he would be too smart to do the best thing. I shall explain. Sun Quan and Liu Bei are in an alliance, everyone knows this. They managed to fight off Cao Cao and are now still opposing him. If Zhou Yu attacks and defeats Liu Bei the entire land will see this as the stronger ally picking on a weaker ally just because they felt like it. This will prevent any further alliances esspecially with the weaker powers like Zhang Lu or Ma Chao. Remember when Liu Zhang was losing to Liu Bei, Zhang Lu was preparing to assist Liu Zhang whom he hated. This would be the case later on when Wu invades Yi. Zhang Lu would not trust them to be honest and join with Liu Zhang, Cao Cao would also use this excuse to attack Yang while Zhou Yu is away. The only option Sun Quan had was to keep Liu Bei around until he got stronger that way he wouldn't lose face when he betrayes him.
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Unread postby Iain » Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:41 pm

Exar Kun wrote:
Wu's offensive record awful.Aside from Su Ce's campaigna against those weak warlords and their backstabbing of Shu,Wu has never taken territory from someone on the level.They get hammered everytime they try.Even Nanjun,it took them a year!When the Wei army was in full retreat,unreifforced and demoralized.

Both Shu and Wu launched quite a number of offensives against Wei and Wu attacked in greater frequency than Shu. The level of military ability cannot be seen merely by looking at which campaigns were more well-known. Wu also had many internal wars against rebellious factions and tribes, after they conquered Jingzhou and the entire southlands, Wu had to fend of Liu Bei, Wei and Jin, it was nearly impossible for Wu on its own to gain a lot of teritory in Wei.
Exar Kun wrote:Liu Bei on the other hand,expands successfully into Yizhou and a very impressive campaign to take Hanzhong,not counting his victories in Xu.

Well Liu Bei's Yi Ling campaign wasnt very sucessful really. :roll:

If Wu had no real offensive talent, I guess it should really apply to Shu too since Zhuge Liang gained merely 2 countrys from all his northern expeditions and I always thought Zhuge was the best Shu could offer.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:14 pm

DynastyIain wrote:
Exar Kun wrote:
Wu's offensive record awful.Aside from Su Ce's campaigna against those weak warlords and their backstabbing of Shu,Wu has never taken territory from someone on the level.They get hammered everytime they try.Even Nanjun,it took them a year!When the Wei army was in full retreat,unreifforced and demoralized.

Both Shu and Wu launched quite a number of offensives against Wei and Wu attacked in greater frequency than Shu. The level of military ability cannot be seen merely by looking at which campaigns were more well-known. Wu also had many internal wars against rebellious factions and tribes, after they conquered Jingzhou and the entire southlands, Wu had to fend of Liu Bei, Wei and Jin, it was nearly impossible for Wu on its own to gain a lot of teritory in Wei.
Exar Kun wrote:Liu Bei on the other hand,expands successfully into Yizhou and a very impressive campaign to take Hanzhong,not counting his victories in Xu.

Well Liu Bei's Yi Ling campaign wasnt very sucessful really. :roll:

If Wu had no real offensive talent, I guess it should really apply to Shu too since Zhuge Liang gained merely 2 countrys from all his northern expeditions and I always thought Zhuge was the best Shu could offer.


Don't see why Wuists are so proud of Yi Ling. Lu Xun pulled a victory out his ass. After repeated defeats Lu Xun tells his officers not to go to battle, a few months later Lu Xun attacks and is defeated. Then he apparently figures out that wood burns and sets Liu Bei's camps on fire. It is a victory but not a very impressive one to defeat troops whom have been sitting on their ass for months and he almost screwed that up as well
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:31 pm

Both Shu and Wu launched quite a number of offensives against Wei and Wu attacked in greater frequency than Shu. The level of military ability cannot be seen merely by looking at which campaigns were more well-known. Wu also had many internal wars against rebellious factions and tribes, after they conquered Jingzhou and the entire southlands, Wu had to fend of Liu Bei, Wei and Jin, it was nearly impossible for Wu on its own to gain a lot of teritory in Wei.


Forgive me,but that's utter junk.
Wu's internal wars are its own problems.They expect to run labour camps and to use non-han tribes as slaves,then that's what you get.Their tribes were hardly anything to cringe over.It's not like they're dealing with Qiang or something.Shanyue?*yawn*
Wu also only had to fend off Liu Bei once,he had to fend off Wu more times than that.Also,attacks from Wei weren't only a Wu problem,Shu had to deal with attacks also.
You said yourself,Wu launched many campaigns,so why do none succeed.With his smaller force,Liu Bei can take Hanzhong from Wei no less.Cannot Wu accomplish something similar?

Well Liu Bei's Yi Ling campaign wasnt very sucessful really.


How nice of you to bring up something completely irrelevant.

If Wu had no real offensive talent, I guess it should really apply to Shu too since Zhuge Liang gained merely 2 countrys from all his northern expeditions and I always thought Zhuge was the best Shu could offer.


Did Shu start in 223 after Liu Bei died?No.Shu took Yizhou,Hanzhong in full out campaigns then of course we have their southern vassal states and the Wu Du commandery.
If you insist on only looking at Shu after Liu Bei became Emperor or something then I shall do the same with Wu,who were thus not a state till 229.And believe me,looking at Wu's post-229 record,I can laugh.A LOT.
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Unread postby Iain » Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:42 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Don't see why Wuists are so proud of Yi Ling. Lu Xun pulled a victory out his ass. After repeated defeats Lu Xun tells his officers not to go to battle, a few months later Lu Xun attacks and is defeated. Then he apparently figures out that wood burns and sets Liu Bei's camps on fire. It is a victory but not a very impressive one to defeat troops whom have been sitting on their ass for months and he almost screwed that up as well
First off do not attempt to label someone who sees a different point as a staunch supporter of a particular side (Wuist) secondly Lu Xun pulled his victory out of a better place than your crude suggestion, it was Lu Xun's foresight that saw that the Shu army had camped in a nice wide formation suitable for setting fire to, perhaps if Liu Bei had such foresight he could have seen what a stupid tactic this was on a very dry period too. Also the main Shu army was in position for barely two weeks when the 'burning' order was given by Lu Xun.

Could you please explain to me how Lu Xun 'almost' screwed up the burning of the Shu army, I felt it was a total victory for Wu that day with a blow to Shu that they never really recovered from.
Sorry all this is quite off topic and unnecessary here. Apologies Iain.
Last edited by Iain on Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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