Zhou Yu attacking Yi was it possible?

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Zhou Yu attacking Yi was it possible?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:42 pm

Please forgive me if there is a better place for me to place this but i was wondering about something.

Was Zhou Yu's plan to take Yi after taking Jiang Ling possible? I personally think that any attack would fail. The Wu soldiers were not used to mountians and it would take years for them to take the land. During this time Cao Cao could attack Jiang Ling or Yang directly. Another threat would be that Liu Bei could march into Yang or Jiang Ling while Wu's main armies are engaged in Yi. I also think Zhou Yu was underestimating the riverland soldiers.

What do you all think?
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:59 pm

Hmm, don't worry. I don't think this needs locking. Anyway, I agree. Zhou Yu actually didn't intend to, of course, but I think that it would have failed. They would not get any reinforcements due to the distance of the campaign, but I doubt Liu Bei would invade because even if he disposed of Sun Quan (not likely because he was married into the Sun family) he would have to contend with Cao Cao from Fan and Heifei, and Zhou Yu from Shu.

Cao Cao would have probably attacked Hefei with lots of force if Zhou Yu was away. Sun Quan would probably need Zhou Yu to shift his forces over to Hefei as backup. The campaign would take a lot of men to accomplish. (Probably at least three quarters of the entire Wu army) No, it might have been accomplished but since they would have handed it over to Liu Bei, I doubt it was in their interests, unless to get Jingzhou. Probably only by moving Quan's capital to Xiangyang, (if it was secured by a defense at Fan and Xinye) which they didn't have access to, would it have been easier and be in their interests without an interfering Liu Bei.
Last edited by Sima Hui on Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:50 pm

There's no way he would succeed.His supply lines would be too thin and too long,a flanking force could easily cut off his invasion from supplies and then catch them in a pincer.

Next,there's no way he can break into those mountains.Liu Bei at least was able to gain support first and did have troops already stationed inside the passes whereas Zhou Yu needs to break into those same passes.

He'd need to take and consolidate all of Jing first,and then get ready for a drawn out war with Liu Zhang.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:00 pm

Funnily enough, that was Zhou Yu's plan, and there is a record that Sun Quan made an attempt by sending Sun Yi to do so(who was supposedly blocked by Liu Bei). And I gotta say, such an invasion would result in the loss of Jiang Ling and the loss of Yang most likely.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:49 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Funnily enough, that was Zhou Yu's plan, and there is a record that Sun Quan made an attempt by sending Sun Yi to do so(who was supposedly blocked by Liu Bei). And I gotta say, such an invasion would result in the loss of Jiang Ling and the loss of Yang most likely.


Exactly they'd never be able to reinforce at home if Wei attacked.
Hell when they turned back Liu Bei could blockade them,wipe them out and then contend with Wei for Yang and he'd have the advantage due to his Jingzhou native troops.
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Unread postby Wanghui » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:22 am

You forget Lu Xun and Lu Meng. Sun Quan can place one of them to defend He Fei against Cao Cao while Zhou Yu make campaign to the West take Jing & Yi. If Zhou Yu can take Jing and defeat Liu Bei & ZGL, it will be easy to take Yi
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:51 am

Wanghui wrote:You forget Lu Xun and Lu Meng. Sun Quan can place one of them to defend He Fei against Cao Cao while Zhou Yu make campaign to the West take Jing & Yi. If Zhou Yu can take Jing and defeat Liu Bei & ZGL, it will be easy to take Yi


Firstly,scratch Lu Xun.This is even before the 210s so Lu Xun isn't in any military position of authority.Replace with Lu Su.
Next is that Sun Quan's troops are obviously not unlimited.He's sending enough force east to break into mountains.Translation = a lot of troops.
Therefore his western defenses are going to be lessened.Therefore they're going to be very vulnerable to a Wei attack with their weakened defenses not to mention that their best commanders will undoubtedly go with the invasion east.

Next is this assumption that Zhou Yu can beat Liu Bei?Not a chance.Zhou Yu goes east and hits a wall(literally) against Liu Zhang.Cao Cao attacks out of He Fei.Zhou Yu turns around and is walled off by Liu Bei AND will have to deal with counterattacking Liu Zhang troops.Zhou Yu is far far far from being an exemplary commander so he gets smashed.

Cao Cao's smashes into northern Yangzhou and Liu Bei turns and grabs and south Yang.Then they either divide along a geographical line or face off for Yangzhou.
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Unread postby Wanghui » Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:38 am

Exar Kun wrote:
Wanghui wrote:You forget Lu Xun and Lu Meng. Sun Quan can place one of them to defend He Fei against Cao Cao while Zhou Yu make campaign to the West take Jing & Yi. If Zhou Yu can take Jing and defeat Liu Bei & ZGL, it will be easy to take Yi


Firstly,scratch Lu Xun.This is even before the 210s so Lu Xun isn't in any military position of authority.Replace with Lu Su.
Next is that Sun Quan's troops are obviously not unlimited.He's sending enough force east to break into mountains.Translation = a lot of troops.
Therefore his western defenses are going to be lessened.Therefore they're going to be very vulnerable to a Wei attack with their weakened defenses not to mention that their best commanders will undoubtedly go with the invasion east.

Next is this assumption that Zhou Yu can beat Liu Bei?Not a chance.Zhou Yu goes east and hits a wall(literally) against Liu Zhang.Cao Cao attacks out of He Fei.Zhou Yu turns around and is walled off by Liu Bei AND will have to deal with counterattacking Liu Zhang troops.Zhou Yu is far far far from being an exemplary commander so he gets smashed.

Cao Cao's smashes into northern Yangzhou and Liu Bei turns and grabs and south Yang.Then they either divide along a geographical line or face off for Yangzhou.


I know Lu Xun isn't given military's authority in that time but there are still possiblity that Zhou Yu appoints him or other officer (Lu Su, Lu Meng, Zhou Tai, etc) I don't believe in Wu there are no capable officer just for defend He Fei, why all depend on Zhou Yu ?Beside don't forget in that time Cao Cao has a war with Ma Teng and Ma Chao, he won't so careless attack He Fei. Zhou Yu can take this advantage to defeat Liu Bei and take Jing ( Liu Bei probably killed or run to Liu Zhang's side) after that he'll attack Liu Zhang/ Liu Bei's in Yi so it's impossible he will be surrounded by Liu Bei and Liu Zhang even he wants to get back to Wu. Then, he can make ally with Cao Cao, Cao Cao takes Han Zhong and Zhou Yu takes Yi
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:48 am

Would there be a difference if Zhou Yu presented this plan together with the plan of kidnapping Liu Bei prior to Liu Bei's visit (Liu Bei went to see Sun Quan to request for more land during 210AD)? :D
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Unread postby Equinox » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:38 pm

One should not underestimate the defenses of Yi as well - the population is enormous, and note how Shu recruited many capable officers from the area (Li Yan, Dong He, Fei Yi, Dong Yun, Xiang Chong, Yan Yan, etc.). Wu simply did not have that many troops to send on such a long trek, and even if they arrived at Cheng Du, their supply lines would be stretched out so long that they would be extremely vulnerable to a Wei attack. Kidnapping Liu Bei would likely spur Shu resentment, and after all, the Three Kingdoms plan would be to have the two weaker kingdoms (Shu and Wu) be always allied against the common Wei threat. The moment the alliance was dissolved, the end was near.
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