Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao and Other Warlords

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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:34 am

I submit that Liu Bei could do do nothing for Yuan Shao.Despite being a fine leader,Liu Bei always comes after Cao Cao and there is no way he could beat Cao Cao.
If Liu Biao wanted to get involved he would have,Xuande's opinion would mean little since it is recorded that Liu Biao never really trusted Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:12 am

Wanghui wrote:Is that true? I don't know if that's historical view. From novel's wise I'm pretty sure that Liu Bei intends to leave Cao Cao and volunteer for this attack I'm gonna check it first


Yep. I gather the above from Liu Bei's SGZ biography, which of course, implies that I'm talking from the historical perspective. Read the following:

曹公遣先主督硃灵、路招要击术。未至,术病死。

Don't confuse this with SGYY. :)

Exar Kun wrote:Is there any reason to suggest that Liu Bei was actually 'serving' Yuan Shao.Just because he went to him after Xuzhou doesn't mean necessarily that he meant to serve under him.
It could simply be that he was seeking refuge from Cao Cao.


Well, it was clearly stated that Yuan Shao "遣" or dispatch Liu Bei to meet up with Liu Pi to raid Xu Chang in the statement "绍遣先主将兵与辟等略许下". The character "遣" gives hint of a higher authority sending out orders to his surbordinates.

Another example would be the sentence in Liu Bei's biography that follows soon after the above statement. It goes "曹公遣曹仁将兵击先主" which means Cao Cao dispatched Cao Ren with some troops to attack Liu Bei. Note the same usage of the character "遣".

One may find it easy to understand that Cao Ren was working under Cao Cao given the historical context. On the other hand, to some, it maybe difficult to see why Liu Bei should be viewed as working under Yuan Shao even if the same character "遣", with the same meaning is used. I would speculate that perhaps, Liu Bei himself found it hard to accept the fact that he was put in the position of "working under" Yuan Shao. This maybe one of the reasons why he left Yuan Shao.

Also, I'd like to present this question. How often do you see the situation where someone with considerably lesser power (in terms of troops, officers, land) being given an equal status by the more powerful person whom he seeked refuge with earlier on?
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:09 pm

Great Deer wrote:Also, I'd like to present this question. How often do you see the situation where someone with considerably lesser power (in terms of troops, officers, land) being given an equal status by the more powerful person whom he seeked refuge with earlier on?


You are already of a different standing being a guest.
I don't think the status was equal but rather Xuande was taking refuge under Yuan Shao and his status was that of a guest rather than of a subordinate.
It says he 'dispatched' Liu Bei,but wasn't that Liu Bei's idea in the first place?Therefore though the wording as you say may seem otherwise,was he really excersing a lord's authority or accepting the idea of supporting a guest's plan?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:22 am

Exar Kun wrote:You are already of a different standing being a guest.
I don't think the status was equal but rather Xuande was taking refuge under Yuan Shao and his status was that of a guest rather than of a subordinate.

Irregardless of whether Liu Bei was a guest or not, his status would be at least one level below that of his host/boss. There's a Chinese saying that goes "強賓不壓主" which means, a powerful guest will never put himself above the host and steal the limelight. Hence, even if Liu Bei was in a powerful position when he joined Yuan Shao (which obviously he wasn't), Liu Bei would still be in the position of receiving orders from Yuan Shao.

Exar Kun wrote:It says he 'dispatched' Liu Bei,but wasn't that Liu Bei's idea in the first place?Therefore though the wording as you say may seem otherwise,was he really excersing a lord's authority or accepting the idea of supporting a guest's plan?


Can you point out to me where it said that it was Liu Bei's idea to join up with Liu Pi to raid Xu Chang? That would be the first mission which Yuan Shao gave Liu Bei(according to the extract from Liu Bei's SGZ biography that I cited in my previous post) unless you can present sources to show otherwise.

Btw, you haven't answered the last question in my previous post. :D
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:08 am

Irregardless of whether Liu Bei was a guest or not, his status would be at least one level below that of his host/boss. There's a Chinese saying that goes "強賓不壓主" which means, a powerful guest will never put himself above the host and steal the limelight. Hence, even if Liu Bei was in a powerful position when he joined Yuan Shao (which obviously he wasn't), Liu Bei would still be in the position of receiving orders from Yuan Shao.


I don't dispute that.But whether or not he can receive Yuan Shao's orders doesn't matter since he is a guest not a subordinate.As a guest he can take his leave at any point.

Can you point out to me where it said that it was Liu Bei's idea to join up with Liu Pi to raid Xu Chang? That would be the first mission which Yuan Shao gave Liu Bei(according to the extract from Liu Bei's SGZ biography that I cited in my previous post) unless you can present sources to show otherwise.


I..uhh...look over there! :arrow:
*runs*

Seems I was mistaken on that.But something interesting comes to my attention.You translate the orders to Liu Bei as 'dispatch' and I notice now that Steve translated them as 'asked' and then uses 'sent' with regard to Cao Ren.Are you translating too strongly or is he wrong?

As for your question,I thought I had that dodged pretty well.You know the answer.:wink:
LOOK! :arrow:
*runs*
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:35 am

Exar Kun wrote:I don't dispute that.But whether or not he can receive Yuan Shao's orders doesn't matter since he is a guest not a subordinate.As a guest he can take his leave at any point.

Yep. No doubt about that. I mean, even an officer could take his leave anytime. :D

Exar Kun wrote:Seems I was mistaken on that.But something interesting comes to my attention.You translate the orders to Liu Bei as 'dispatch' and I notice now that Steve translated them as 'asked' and then uses 'sent' with regard to Cao Ren.Are you translating too strongly or is he wrong?


The same character "遣" (which if you look up any Chinese dictionary means to dispatch) is used under the same context for both statements. Refer to the following again:

先主将兵与辟等略许下。关羽亡归先主。曹公曹仁将兵击先主

I don't see anything wrong with using the same wording "dispatch" for both instances, especially by doing so, I don't need to make any prior assumptions. What do you think?


Exar Kun wrote:As for your question,I thought I had that dodged pretty well.You know the answer.:wink:
LOOK! :arrow:
*runs*

:lol: .......... :twisted:
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:45 am

A couple of quibbles:

1) Does Chen Shou ever state how on earth he uncovered Liu Bei's secret intentions and what his source is?

2) Did Liu Bei ever swear allegiance to Yuan Shao and work as his subordinate? If not, at most it is impolite for him not to inform him that he is not going to return.

If he needed him perhaps he could have called for him! And then depending on the power ratios perhaps Yuan Shao will have to defer to and take orders from Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:22 am

Zhilong wrote:1) Does Chen Shou ever state how on earth he uncovered Liu Bei's secret intentions and what his source is?

Nope, I'm afraid Chen Shou didn't state that source. Historians during then didn't put down specific references for all their statements in the records. Going along that line, we wouldn't know where Chen Shou got his sources regarding:

1) Ma Chao secretly wanted to kill Cao Cao while the latter was conversing with Han Sui

2) Wang Hao secretly wanted to remove Jiang Wei

3) Liu Zhang secretly suspected Pang Yi of harbouring rebellious thoughts

4) etc., etc.,...

We can make some speculations on the different possibilities but I don't think that's the main point here. :)

Zhilong wrote:2) Did Liu Bei ever swear allegiance to Yuan Shao and work as his subordinate? If not, at most it is impolite for him not to inform him that he is not going to return.

There is no clear indication here. In fact, Liu Bei could have been a guest like what Exar said. Of course, like I mentioned earlier, Liu Bei was still taking orders from Yuan Shao.


Zhilong wrote:If he needed him perhaps he could have called for him! And then depending on the power ratios perhaps Yuan Shao will have to defer to and take orders from Liu Bei.

I don't quite get you here. Going according to the situation shown in the extract I quoted, are you implying that you expect Yuan Shao to take orders from a defeated Imperial scion while he himself was the master of the north with hundreds of thousands of soldiers? :)
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:30 pm

Yep. No doubt about that. I mean, even an officer could take his leave anytime.


Not without being called a deserter.
A guest would have no such accusations levied at him.

But given that he received such fine treatment from them,are they really considering him a subordinate.It is most unusual in such a time of war for any subordinate,however meritorious,to receive such treatment.
And also the fact that he 'dispatched' him to Ru Nan,what would happen if he won?Wouldn't it be expected for Liu Bei to occupy Cao's territory and be Yuan Shao's ally?He couldn't be expecting to manage a subordinate from such a long distance,especially with no direct lines of transport or communication.
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