Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao and Other Warlords

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Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao and Other Warlords

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:29 am

I just made this thread to clarify the point about Liu Bei's intention of leaving Yuan Shao (as I do not wish to digress in the other thread).

Liu Bei secretly desired to leave Yuan Shao right after he returned from the first mission (which Yuan Shao gave him). As such, Liu Bei persuaded Yuan Shao to form an alliance with Liu Bei and following which, Yuan Shao sent Liu Bei south to Ru Nan again. Refer to the extract from Liu Bei's SGZ biography:

绍遣先主将兵与辟等略许下。关羽亡归先主。曹公遣曹仁将兵击先主,先主还绍军,阴欲离绍,乃说绍南连荆州牧刘表。绍遣先主将本兵复至汝南,与贼龚都等合,众数千人。曹公遣蔡阳击之,为先主所杀。

Translates to:

Yuan Shao dispatched Liu Bei and some troops, together with Liu Pi to raid Xu Chang. Guan Yu escaped and returned to Liu Bei's camp. Cao Cao sent Cao Ren with some troops to attack Liu Bei. Liu Bei returned to Yuan Shao's army, and secretly decided to leave Yuan Shao, as such, he persuaded to form an alliance with Liu Biao. Yuan Shao dispatched Liu Bei and some troops to return to Ru Nan, who then joined forces with the rebel Gong Du, resulting in a force of several thousands soldiers. Cao Cao sent Cai Yang to attack them, and Cai Yang was killed by Liu Bei.

Note that the bolded portion "阴欲离绍,乃说绍南连荆州牧刘表。" clearly demonstrated Liu Bei's secret intention of leaving Yuan Shao (where the word "阴" means secretly in this context).

If you're interested, you can discuss about how Liu Bei left other warlords in this thread (and I may change the title of the thread if the discussion gets more varied). :)

EDIT: I've just changed the title of this thread. Note that this is NOT a Liu Bei bashing thread. Rather, I'd like to have an objective discussion of related events. Thank you. :)
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Wanghui » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:39 am

Liu Bei left Cao Cao with reason that he wants to help him attack Yuan Shu
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Unread postby SteelDragon » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:47 am

To add to the whole "Liu Bei leaveing Yuan Shao" bit, did'nt he quicken his choice to leave shortly after Guan Yu cut down Yan Liang? i recall when Yuan Shao heard of this he was Furious with Liu Bei and wanted him brought Before him. is this true?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:48 am

Wanghui wrote:Liu Bei left Cao Cao with reason that he wants to help him attack Yuan Shu


Well, it didn't really happen that way. Cao Cao sent Liu Bei to attack Yuan Shu and I don't think Liu Bei suggested or volunteered for that mission. However, before Liu Bei set off, Dong Cheng received the secret edict from the Han Emperor and they began to plot against Cao Cao. Yuan Shu died before Liu Bei reached him. Dong Cheng's plot was soon exposed and Liu Bei killed the Inspector of Xu Zhou, Che Zhou, thus regaining control of Xia Pi and Xiao Pei. :)

SteelDragon wrote:To add to the whole "Liu Bei leaveing Yuan Shao" bit, did'nt he quicken his choice to leave shortly after Guan Yu cut down Yan Liang? i recall when Yuan Shao heard of this he was Furious with Liu Bei and wanted him brought Before him. is this true?


Ermm..well, that happened in the novel. The stuffs I quoted in my first post are taken from San Guo Zhi (or the official historical records for the three kingdoms era).

In any case, feel free to discuss in the novel context too. :D
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Thu Apr 08, 2004 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Wizardman » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:57 pm

I don't really blame Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao since he didn't seem to be used right. And of course, Yuan Shao was angry with just about everyone, not just Liu Bei. Besides, after the Jade Belt Plot, If Liu Bei stayed andhad been captured by Cao Cao, there's a good chance he'd be dead. (Assuming Guan Yu did not know about the capture at the time)

For Liu Bei leaving Cao Cao, it was mainly to help with Yuan Shu, and little more.

As for Liu Bei leaving Tao Qian and Lu Bu, they left him (death/capture of his city), so those cases aren't very relevant to the topic, unless I'm mistaken.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:36 pm

Wizardman wrote:I don't really blame Liu Bei leaving Yuan Shao since he didn't seem to be used right. And of course, Yuan Shao was angry with just about everyone, not just Liu Bei.


Actually, there was aboslutely no hint in the historical records (as far as I know) that Yuan Shao mistreated Liu Bei or did not use him right. In fact, when Liu Bei first joined Yuan Shao after he was badly defeated by Cao Cao, the Yuan family showed him utmost respect. Below is the extract from Liu Be's SGZ biography:

将步骑迎先主。先主随谭到平原,谭驰使白绍。绍遣将道路奉迎,身去鄴二百里,与先主相见。

translates to:

..(Yuan Tan) led some infantry soldiers and horsemen to welcome Liu Bei. Liu Bei followed Yuan Tan to Ping Yuan, Yuan Tan sent a messanger to inform Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao dispatched his generals to welcome Liu Bei along the road, and personally went 200 li from Ye to meet up with Liu Bei.

This extract clearly shows that Yuan Shao treated Liu Bei exceptionally well. Also, shortly after Liu Bei joined Yuan Shao, he was sent on a mission south to link up with Liu Pi (hence, it shows that Liu Bei was not underused at all). When Liu Bei returned from that mission, he secretly harboured the intention of leaving Yuan Shao. This entire chain of events disprove your speculations and hence, it is likely that Liu Bei left Yuan Shao for his own reasons. :)

Wizardman wrote:For Liu Bei leaving Cao Cao, it was mainly to help with Yuan Shu, and little more.


I don't know what you're talking about and I wonder if you even bother to read through the posts in this thread before posting.:cry: I did clearly state that Liu Bei was sent by Cao Cao to attack Yuan Shu and certainly, Liu Bei didn't leave Cao Cao to help him. Shortly after Liu Bei left for that mission, Dong Cheng's plot was exposed and Liu Bei killed the Inspector of Xu Zhou.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:23 pm

Is there any reason to suggest that Liu Bei was actually 'serving' Yuan Shao.Just because he went to him after Xuzhou doesn't mean necessarily that he meant to serve under him.
It could simply be that he was seeking refuge from Cao Cao.Which would be consistent with the intent of his mission to Liu Biao.
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Unread postby harshbarge » Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:40 pm

I think by saying Liu Bei wasn't being used right was that he wasn't given a mission to fill his ambition
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:03 am

This wasn't the first stop of Liu Bei's travels around China and it certainly wasn't the last stop for him. Congruent with the way he was treated i'd say he was a treated as a guest / friend rather than a subject who had pledged allegiance. His fame was significant even though his real power at that point was very little. And we all know how Yuan Shao loves to gather those with fame but he does not know how to use them very well. Think Zhang He, Gao Lan, Ju Shou, Tian Feng, Lu Bu... Probably not wise to stay with him for very long.

In any case Liu Bei often brings doom and destruction to those he comes into contact with so maybe Yuan Shao was lucky he did not return!

Did Liu Bei's absence have any significant contribution to Yuan Shao's defeat? I don't think so. In fact, Liu Bei is oft defeated so again Yuan Shao is probably lucky he is not there! :P

It is also probably better for the citizens of the north that he is not there too since he cannot hold anywhere in the north for long.

And for the record i am not a Liu Bei basher though somehow it sounds that way... :lol:
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Unread postby Wanghui » Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:56 am

Great Deer wrote:I don't know what you're talking about and I wonder if you even bother to read through the posts in this thread before posting.:cry: I did clearly state that Liu Bei was sent by Cao Cao to attack Yuan Shu and certainly, Liu Bei didn't leave Cao Cao to help him. Shortly after Liu Bei left for that mission, Dong Cheng's plot was exposed and Liu Bei killed the Inspector of Xu Zhou.


Is that true? I don't know if that's historical view. From novel's wise I'm pretty sure that Liu Bei intends to leave Cao Cao and volunteer for this attack I'm gonna check it first

For Zhilong,
Liu Bei's absence of course has effect with Yuan Shao's defeat. I'm not telling If Liu Bei there Yuan Shao can win, but with Liu Bei's officer like Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Zhao Yun it's not that easy for Cao Cao can defeat them. Liu Bei also can make ally with Liu Biao. There's a lot of thing he can do instead of betray Yuan Shao and don't pay back Yuan Shao's kindness
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