Page 1 of 2

Cai Mao

Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:17 pm
by Zhang Liao17
Cai Mao, was he as evil as everyone thinks or was he just doing his duty as an officer of Liu Biao?

Personally I don't think Cai Mao is such a bad guy. Everyone hates him for trying to kill Liu Bei, but just think about it. If Liu Bei gets control of Jingzhou, his family won't be as prominent and he will rarely be used since his talent doesn't match Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, etc's. For the well being of himself and probaly Jingzhou as well Cai Mao had to at least try to kill Liu Bei. I think Cai Mao was only doing his duty to keep Liu Biao's direct descendants and his family in power.

Re: Cai Mao

Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 7:32 pm
by Dennis
Zhang Liao17 wrote:Cai Mao, was he as evil as everyone thinks or was he just doing his duty as an officer of Liu Biao?

Personally I don't think Cai Mao is such a bad guy. Everyone hates him for trying to kill Liu Bei, but just think about it. If Liu Bei gets control of Jingzhou, his family won't be as prominent and he will rarely be used since his talent doesn't match Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, etc's. For the well being of himself and probaly Jingzhou as well Cai Mao had to at least try to kill Liu Bei. I think Cai Mao was only doing his duty to keep Liu Biao's direct descendants and his family in power.


On the other side of the fence though, Cai Mao could not deny that Liu Bei was instrumental for the survival of Liu Biao at the time. He was very selfish and defied what was in the best interests of Jing and only looked into fulfilling his family's self-interest. Nevertheless, selfish acts for the sake of family is what Liu Bei is guilty of as well, so I suppose Cai Mao is no worse than Liu Bei.

Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:01 pm
by Zhang Liao17
I don't think Liu Bei was too important in the defense of Jingzhou. Of course just being there made Cao Cao think twice before invasion, but Liu Biao was already very strong,only he had no ambition. I believe Liu Biao's armies could have held out for quite awhile but would have been defeated in the end.

Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:22 am
by James
I have thought about this before. I believe that Cai Mao was only looking out for his lord as he realized a potential threat in Liu Bei, but I do not think it justifies going against his lord’s wishes. As far as SGYY goes the deceptive steps he took to get Liu Bei killed were also pretty low. I think he was a bad apple, but unfortunately in this case pretty much all I have to go off is the SGYY (not that it really bothers me though). :)

Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:54 am
by Mega Zarak
The quality of Liu Biao's generals and troops were mediocre when compared to Cao Cao's or Sun Quan's (or Sun Ce's). e.g. in 198 A.D., Zhang Xian the prefect of Chang Sha led a rebellion against Liu Biao (the official governor of Jing Zhou) together with troops from Gui Yang and Ling Ling. Liu Biao took years to subjugate them and only managed to do so after Zhang Xiang passed away.

It was after that event that Liu Biao's troops swelled to 100,000+ and he become the dominant force in Jing Zhou. As such, Liu Biao's rule of Jing Zhou was actually rather brief. Cai Mao belonged to one of the most powerful families in Jing Zhou (together with Pang, Kuai, etc.) and both Liu Biao and him formed a mutually dependent relationship to consolidate their status in Jing Zhou. Hence, instead of saying that Cai Mao was trying to protect Jing Zhou, it would be more appropriate to say that Cai Mao was trying to protect his own interests. Liu Bei was an outsider/refugee/opportunist when he came to Jing Zhou. There was no way that he could present a substantial threat even with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei due to reasons seen by several of Wei's advisors such as Guo Jia.

Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:49 am
by Han Xin
Great Deer wrote:It was after that event that Liu Biao's troops swelled to 100,000+ and he become the dominant force in Jing Zhou. As such, Liu Biao's rule of Jing Zhou was actually rather brief. Cai Mao belonged to one of the most powerful families in Jing Zhou (together with Pang, Kuai, etc.) and both Liu Biao and him formed a mutually dependent relationship to consolidate their status in Jing Zhou. Hence, instead of saying that Cai Mao was trying to protect Jing Zhou, it would be more appropriate to say that Cai Mao was trying to protect his own interests. Liu Bei was an outsider/refugee/opportunist when he came to Jing Zhou. There was no way that he could present a substantial threat even with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei due to reasons seen by several of Wei's advisors such as Guo Jia.


Exactly, even in SGYY, I don't see the Cai as a bad bunch of people, they just looking after for their interest. Liu Bei just a refugee with no clear identity, why should he allowed to be able to simply turn up and steal everything away from the Cai? Justice was done, when JingZhou (Liu Biao's original peice of land) was share between Wu and Wei... :D

Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:08 pm
by Cao Ren
cai mao was very evil how can u feel bad for a guy who doesn't follow his orders and makes liu zong protector of jingzhou just so his evil sister and him can have power they didn't even tell liu bei or liu qi about the death of liu biao thank god he was executed by cao cao, but i wish he was killed by someone in battle and his head was brought as a prize even cao cao said that he was not to be trusted and knew he would have to dispose of him sooner or later

Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 5:58 pm
by James
Great Deer wrote:It was after that event that Liu Biao's troops swelled to 100,000+ and he become the dominant force in Jing Zhou. As such, Liu Biao's rule of Jing Zhou was actually rather brief. Cai Mao belonged to one of the most powerful families in Jing Zhou (together with Pang, Kuai, etc.) and both Liu Biao and him formed a mutually dependent relationship to consolidate their status in Jing Zhou. Hence, instead of saying that Cai Mao was trying to protect Jing Zhou, it would be more appropriate to say that Cai Mao was trying to protect his own interests. Liu Bei was an outsider/refugee/opportunist when he came to Jing Zhou. There was no way that he could present a substantial threat even with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei due to reasons seen by several of Wei's advisors such as Guo Jia.

Thanks! That is very interesting. Taking that into account I feel Luo Guanzhong made an interesting and appropriate character out of him.

Re: Cai Mao

Unread postPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 7:33 pm
by Shadowlink
Zhang Liao17 wrote:Cai Mao, was he as evil as everyone thinks or was he just doing his duty as an officer of Liu Biao?

Personally I don't think Cai Mao is such a bad guy. Everyone hates him for trying to kill Liu Bei, but just think about it. If Liu Bei gets control of Jingzhou, his family won't be as prominent and he will rarely be used since his talent doesn't match Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, etc's. For the well being of himself and probaly Jingzhou as well Cai Mao had to at least try to kill Liu Bei. I think Cai Mao was only doing his duty to keep Liu Biao's direct descendants and his family in power.
liu bei is related to liu biao i think so he is a descendants of liu biao also cai mao made liu zong surrender to cao cao how is that helping the descendants of liu biao?

Unread postPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 7:47 pm
by Guan Suo
Liu Biao needed to depend on Cai mao and others to stay afloat, Liu biao should have been able to make a powerfull kingdom but because he lacked ambition lost out,he was a poor ruler(in my eyes) and his son(liu Zong) was even worse,When Cai Mao told Liu Zong to surrened he was doing what was best for Jing and Liu Zong,If Liu Zong had done battle with Cao CAo, Liu Zong would have been routed easy and exicuted.Cai Mao thought about this and told him to surrender so that Cao Cao would not kill Zong also if he had thought the troops would have been massicared.A new ruler shouldnt seek battle as soon as he gets on the thrown, that is foolish.

i think what i said made sense, if not........well il try make it better.in a summary its just saying Cai Mao was looking at for the Lius(biao side) and Jing.