Were Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei suitable to become Gods?

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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue May 01, 2007 2:49 pm

Hey, you copied my location!

Wait, there's more than one person in London isn't there. Welcome. :lol:

I said once that Guan Yu and "gods" like him were benevolent spirits (Shen), and that they were more like saints than gods, then Lady Wu promply "corrected" me.

I dunno, I guess I've always thought of Chinese gods as on a similar status to our saints because there's only one Budda to "join", and the rest are spirits who join him.

BTW- we have a thread about describing what Guan Yu represents as a God, you're right though, he was dubbed "God of War" or something similar in the Song dynasty but TBH, he represents so much more than just that if you're in Taiwan/ China, he actually represents many different aspects. (Thus the statues of him holding books, swords or on horseback- all representing slightly different forms).

Guan Gong is definately one of the most important of the Chinese panthion of Gods though.

Zhang Fei is pretty well worshipped in Taiwan and Liu Bei is the god of Shoes as Cao Ah Man said, though I'm sure their following is less than that of Guan Yu!
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Tue May 01, 2007 3:01 pm

He is a saint then. Because there is only 1 god in Christianity. Saint of animal is like St Francis and then there is a saint of wealth. The Saints listen to your prayers and takl to God about it. It's like a channel.
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Unread postby Mei » Tue May 01, 2007 4:30 pm

Liu Bei as a god? :?
I can't see this.
A, he was naive,
B, he was slightly ignorant,
C, he was naive,
D, he was, imo, only considered great because of his brothers, and
E, did I mention he was naive?

Guan Yu and Zhang Fei I do consider as gods. They were great warriors and military generals, but I just wouldn't even think of Liu Bei in a god-like persona. I have nothing against him, (I in fact like him) but I just would never call him a god and can't understand the whole worship of him. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't like his holier than thou portrayal very much. It's doesn't show the true person. If he was portrayed truthfully (whatever that may be), I may reconsider my opinion.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue May 01, 2007 4:42 pm

I think it is because his novel naivety, care of the people and supposed virtue, even if he is as useless as a barn door in the novel. I'm not so sure that the able commander, cunning political man of history would have the same love that Liu Bei gets.
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Unread postby dirtybird » Tue May 01, 2007 10:11 pm

Shi Tong wrote:Why so certain dirtybird? Who said who could become a god anyway, and why should we believe in one who never existed in the first place anyway?

IMO, if the Chinese, Taiwanese and HKers to a large degree all worship these gods, then of course they deserve to be gods, they're put there by the people who know best- those who belong to that culture.


In my opinion, that level was just to high for a human. i undertstand how the Chinese feel and what not, i'm only saying placing someone at the deity level is just too much.
Everything i've obtained, and all i know; i give it away just to know you Lord.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Tue May 01, 2007 11:28 pm

:lol: Cuchulain Irish hero he is god lkie status what aobut other saints? what about zeus is he real? what about other people that didnt do anything that people put glory on? so stop hating. What about Kenshin god of war? if Luo guanzhong made a fake story without any historial elementt lkies stars wars you guys wont have this talk. Who are you to decide? it's part of the community, part of their cultural. Like I said they are Saints not god. Christian martyr die for something more than themselves dying for the han/God, Truly they deserve it then. I never even heard of Liu Bei and Zhang Fei as Gods
Edit: You know what now i'm pissed off. How was he naive how? how? and how again? how was he ignorant? he made rational choices he was a rational being
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Unread postby Foif » Wed May 02, 2007 12:30 am

First of all, as many people said, humans shouldnt really be "raised" to God status. And second of all, Gods cant act like them.

Liu Bei was carried away by luxury, and completely forgot the "people".

Guan Yu killed himself because his overwhelming supply of arrogance.

Zhang Fei was rash and sometimes unreasonable.

Could those be suited for as a God?
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Unread postby Cao Ah Man » Wed May 02, 2007 12:31 am

Well one of my Taiwanese friends, (I'm Thai btw, and I pray to Guan Yu/Gwanoo at his temple every time I go back home to Thailand.) said that the only reason Liu Bei and Zhang Fei reached the same status as a saint was more or less cause since Guan Yu was elevated, and as they were all brothers, it wouldn't be right for one to be raised over the other. However, that could just be conjecture on my part.

Also, in Buddhism there isn't just ONE Buddha, there are MANY buddhas. Buddha just means englightened, and in SGYY at least, it says that Guan Yu achieves nirvana as a ghost with the buddhist monk Pu Jing. And AGAIN I stress, Chinese god does NOT equal All powerful Zeus, let alone Jesus, or YHWH. The fact that they were elevated to that status was because of their moral virtues that stood out from the common muck. The Chinese aren't saying they were perfect, they're just honoring them for what they did. I mean, Jesus, Mohammed, hell even the Buddha (And I'm a very devout buddhist) wasn't perfect, and they are honored to an even higher extent than the three brothers, and yet they were seriously only human, just like the three brothers.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed May 02, 2007 12:34 am

foif wrote:First of all, as many people said, humans shouldnt really be "raised" to God status. And second of all, Gods cant act like them.

Liu Bei was carried away by luxury, and completely forgot the "people".

Guan Yu killed himself because his overwhelming supply of arrogance.

Zhang Fei was rash and sometimes unreasonable.

Could those be suited for as a God?
Like I said just lkie the book "The liofe of saint" Virgins being stubborn and sending other virgins to their death and they get to become saints because they are martyr. Are you talking history or novel? there are alot of saints that did something wrong and in the end doing it for the people got them to Saint. I don't pray to Guan yu but I respect him, Heck If I open a bussiness Ill get a Guan Gong statue. Btw Guan Yu is not Guan Gong. They are 2 different people. Guan Yu is a mortal while Guan gong is a god of war
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Unread postby Cao Ah Man » Wed May 02, 2007 12:36 am

Shadowlink, Guan Yu IS Guan Gong. Guan Gong and Guan Yu are the same person, Guan Gong just means "Lord Guan" like Guan Di also means the same thing.
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