Were Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei suitable to become Gods?

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Unread postby Tyler » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:27 am

I don't think they should be called gods but the chinesse worship them as gods.
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Unread postby Starscream » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:18 am

Liu, Guan and Zhang are deities in their own right and this is regardless of their secular deeds. They are made gods because they represent certain virtues and causes that were deemed as important in history. Liu Bei represents loyalty and benevolence; Guan Yu represents loyalty, justice and righteousness and Zhang Fei represents courage and valour. The friendship, and eventually brotherly love, between Liu, Guan and Zhang is the most celebrated aspect that people look at when they think about the three together. That is, even if you disagree with the associations of such virtues with the trios in history. :lol:

If anyone feels that Liu, Guan and Zhang are unsuitable to be deities/gods based on their deeds, then some other gods/goddesses from other culture outright flaunting sins and displaying human emotions and tantrums are even less suitable to be deities in my opinion. Zeus is a womaniser, Freya is a prostitute and Izanagi behaves like a coward and ran away when he saw Izanami's rotting body in hell. Nevertheless, all these are deities placed in high virtues in various cultures.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:47 am

Cai Yan wrote:If anyone feels that Liu, Guan and Zhang are unsuitable to be deities/gods based on their deeds, then some other gods/goddesses from other culture outright flaunting sins and displaying human emotions and tantrums are even less suitable to be deities in my opinion. Zeus is a womaniser, Freya is a prostitute and Izanagi behaves like a coward and ran away when he saw Izanami's rotting body in hell. Nevertheless, all these are deities placed in high virtues in various cultures.


Yes but the actions of Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Liu Bei were all as mortals. If you look at my post Guan and Zhang died of their own mistakes. And yet the become gods. Liu Bei had many acts of betrayal, again see my last post, yet he still became a god. These were acts of humans who later became gods. All your examples were of gods unsavory acts. But they were gods. Should a god have to worry about being a good person. And if they are bad, who is going to stop them. All of the three brothers committed these acts as humans, not as gods. And all the gods committed their acts as gods. So there is a subtle difference in comparing immortals and men who became immortals after they committed the acts.
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Unread postby Wanghui » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:03 am

Cai Yan wrote:Liu, Guan and Zhang are deities in their own right and this is regardless of their secular deeds. They are made gods because they represent certain virtues and causes that were deemed as important in history. Liu Bei represents loyalty and benevolence; Guan Yu represents loyalty, justice and righteousness and Zhang Fei represents courage and valour. The friendship, and eventually brotherly love, between Liu, Guan and Zhang is the most celebrated aspect that people look at when they think about the three together. That is, even if you disagree with the associations of such virtues with the trios in history. :lol:

If anyone feels that Liu, Guan and Zhang are unsuitable to be deities/gods based on their deeds, then some other gods/goddesses from other culture outright flaunting sins and displaying human emotions and tantrums are even less suitable to be deities in my opinion. Zeus is a womaniser, Freya is a prostitute and Izanagi behaves like a coward and ran away when he saw Izanami's rotting body in hell. Nevertheless, all these are deities placed in high virtues in various cultures.


I agree with Cai Yan, once I have asked my friend who also had this belief, she answered similarly as Cai Yan especially Guan Yu for Chinese people is famous for his honesty, loyalty and justice. And about his bad attitude like arrogant it's normal as human being, nobody's perfect isn't it ? Everyone must have a darkside
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Unread postby Bryan » Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:05 am

Cai Yan wrote:Liu, Guan and Zhang are deities in their own right and this is regardless of their secular deeds. They are made gods because they represent certain virtues and causes that were deemed as important in history. Liu Bei represents loyalty and benevolence; Guan Yu represents loyalty, justice and righteousness and Zhang Fei represents courage and valour. The friendship, and eventually brotherly love, between Liu, Guan and Zhang is the most celebrated aspect that people look at when they think about the three together. That is, even if you disagree with the associations of such virtues with the trios in history. :lol:

If anyone feels that Liu, Guan and Zhang are unsuitable to be deities/gods based on their deeds, then some other gods/goddesses from other culture outright flaunting sins and displaying human emotions and tantrums are even less suitable to be deities in my opinion. Zeus is a womaniser, Freya is a and Izanagi behaves like a coward and ran away when he saw Izanami's rotting body in hell. Nevertheless, all these are deities placed in high virtues in various cultures.

Well, to begin with, the Greek gods were given human qualities, such as Zeus' debauchery, as well as appearances, to make them have more individuality/personality. Also, since we're using the Greek gods, let us note that in almost every instance of a coupling between a god and a human, whether it be consentual or not, there was usually an offspring. Now, these demi-gods were then used to create/explain more of the Greek culture with their deeds or misdeeds. Theseus, Hercules (or Heracles), etc. were all used to further enrich the Greek culture, giving them a sense of pride, not unlike the sense of pride that some Chinese have for the Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei. So, in a sense, some good has come out of what you have termed a 'sin'. Now, with Freya, yes she was a goddess of as well as fertility. To blatantly call her a shows some ignorance of the Nordic mythos. Calling Freya a is only true if you view it through the standards of other religions and/or of the present. If you view Freya with an open mind the way that she was viewed through the viewsof the believers of that time so long ago, she was not a at all. at that time in that culture, as well as some others, was not as horrible in the public eye as it still is today, well at least in the US. Even when she slept with the dwarves to get her necklace, do you deny that she was doing her duty? To procreate? Being a fertility goddess also means that the well being of farms, and of herds were in her domain, although the Norse were mainly nomadic conquerors/invaders/barbarians/whatever you wish to call them, they did have some farms and settlements. I have no knowledge of Izanagi, so I will to learn some more. Now, all of these gods/goddesses are placed in high virtues in other cultures that have been outright flaunting sins, as you put it, usually have other qualities/deeds that earn them these places.
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Unread postby SteelDragon » Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:38 am

The Three Brothers as Gods? well..maybe not Gods, or Deitys but certainly Images of their own account, i was told that Guan Yu is very well known in Police stations in China, and im not sure but i have to pass Zhang Fei every time i goto my Friend's house, i was told he guards the entrance from Evil Spirits..so i cant argue there..but i never seen one of Liu Bei alone, mostly with his Brothers. so, i dunno about them being gods, but certainly Symbols of something
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Unread postby Tyler » Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:12 pm

Guan Yu= is called the god of war, People also say Guan Di is the god of war is this how you say Guan Yu using the Yale system?
Zhang Fei= I have no clue about
Liu Bei= is the god of virtue
Zhuge Liang= I don't have a clue about ether but I can guess it has something to do with being the god of inteligance or guidance.
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Unread postby GuangRong » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:21 am

There have been other gods of wars way before Guan Yu, but they're eclipse by Guan Yu due to the popularity of SGYY and circumstances

Guan yu, being the icon of undying Loyalty ,fits the the very opressive Ming/Qing Dynasty like a glove .He got official endorsement when he was bestow the "di" (emperor) title .

anyway , the three brothers and most in the novel, as chars in the book are really shoe-horned in to archetypes that is an amalgamation of historical forebears that have long been deified/demonize/branded

so it's quite easy to pick them out to symbolize something, having been already so well known..

eg. ZGL is the amalgamation of Jiang Zi ya , Guang Zhong, Zhang liang, etc.

Liu Bei is the amalagamation of Liu bang/xiu and all the legendary sage kings..
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Unread postby Liu Yu Wen » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:39 am

I think I have some thought about these Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei whose "promoted" to be gods by Chinese.

First of all, It is because Guan Yu ( I never saw people pray to Liu Bei and Zhang Fei but often to see people pray to Guan Yu ) was a great general who respected by people in his era. I don't know what he did before he died by just read San Guo Yen Yi and San Guo Zi, but It was look like that the people at that time respected Guan Yu very much. That's why when he died, people built altar for him and pray to honor his deed.
But with the flow of time, the preseption of the younger generation change. Because they saw their older generation pray to Guan Yu's altar, then they thought Guan Yu was a god, so then they worshiped him as a god, not as a hero whose respedted by their older generation.

I don't believe the ancient chinese were stupid enough to worshiped Guan Yu just because they read Luo Guan Chung's San Guo story. It feel very stupid, like we worship superman because we read his novel.

( sorry if my english is in chaos, because I rarely write a story like this in English )
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Unread postby GuangRong » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:19 am

It's to the benefit of the story teller if his audience assume the story of SGYY is REAL history

To many of the ancient chinese , who only heard if from the story teller and operas, that is their history of the 3K..

The SGYY Guan Yu is the Real and only Guan yu they know..,
I'm pretty sure all the good pple go to heaven and became a god in these story, it's what pple want to hear..

Not suprising pple will built a temple for them..,the chinese'll Idolize anything that they think have the powers to answer their prayers

such is the way of ancient pple , as gods/deities are their only/greatest easiest hope for a better life.
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