Were Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei suitable to become Gods?

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Were Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei suitable to become Gods?

Unread postby Wanghui » Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:48 am

In SGYY, when Guan Yu died, his spirit went to the mountain and met Tao Priest. This Priest guides him to become God. Also when Liu Bei near die he dreams Zhang Fei and Guan Yu come to him and ask him to be with them as God. Until now I find in my country there's a religion that believe they're actually God and they make their statue in the temple and pray to them. If we see from what they've done since they're alive in 3 Kingdom's era do they suitable to become God ? and give the reason whether your answer is yes or no ? Any opinion will be appreciated
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:18 am

I don't believe that any human being should ever be placed at the diety-level. So no, even if the three of them each saved the world five times and invented chocolate, they would not achieve god status in my eyes. Respect is one thing, but worship is a totally different realm.
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Unread postby Bryan » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:39 am

I stand with Lady Zhuge on this. No mortal being should ever be raised up higher than what he/she is: human. No matter what they accomplish, they will never reach divinity.
Also, quick question; when you say
Wanghui wrote:to be with them as God.
what exactly do you mean? Do you mean to be with them as God, as in the Christian God? Or do you mean to become a god alongside them (who are separate beings)?
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Unread postby Wanghui » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:31 am

Bryan wrote:I stand with Lady Zhuge on this. No mortal being should ever be raised up higher than what he/she is: human. No matter what they accomplish, they will never reach divinity.
Also, quick question; when you say
Wanghui wrote:to be with them as God.
what exactly do you mean? Do you mean to be with them as God, as in the Christian God? Or do you mean to become a god alongside them (who are separate beings)?


I'm not quite sure but if you learn ancient chinese's legend and culture there's a belief that human being can become God in their next life if they did a good thing for humanity when they live in a world as human and of course it's different from Christian God maybe its like an angel or Saint in Christian's terminology
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Unread postby Six_and_Up » Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:49 am

Hey the guys fitted the criteria to become gods. They were 'righteous', 'loyal' and achieved a lot while seemingly sticking to the value systems of the day. There lives could be turned into propaganda for the masses of followers in China to confucianism, buddism, taoism etc. So in that respect they were suitable for god-worship because they encompassed a the noble values that humanity wants to aspire to. Most modern day religions have elevated humans to the roles of gods or saints
i.e Jesus, the various saints, Budda, falun gong, Mohomand(sorri if i spelt it wrong)
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Unread postby Iatyco » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:13 am

In chinese culture, there are a lot of examples of good or great people that became god after they die.

However, i don't think that Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei deserve to become god. Most, if not all of what is descrided about them in Romance of the Three Kingdom is made up. They were not even sworn brothers in history. For all we know, Liu Bei may be as ruthless as Cao Cao.
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Unread postby cao cao#1 » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:02 pm

i think humans that have achieved allot and are known for there honor and valor are more deserving to be god than the god we have in christian believe (prepares for allot of comments on that) jesus was just a human and we see him as a sort of god (well the son of god which is almost the same thing).
people believe in god and think he is al powerfull even though they have never seen him or have ever seen proof of his existence .
we know guan yu liu bei and zhang fei existed and we know what they did and i think for that a person does deserve to become a diety if someone is deserving of the title .
i think that if what jesus went through on earth helping people carrying the cross getting whipped and wearing the thorn crown and dying for his people is true jesus in my opinion deffinetly deserves to be seen as a god.
but not his so called father the original god because there is no proof he ever existed and no proof he did anything.

i am sorry if i offended anyone with this post
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Unread postby Rhiannon » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:13 pm

Wanghui wrote:I'm not quite sure but if you learn ancient chinese's legend and culture there's a belief that human being can become God in their next life if they did a good thing for humanity when they live in a world as human and of course it's different from Christian God maybe its like an angel or Saint in Christian's terminology


You know, this brings up an interesting question in my mind.

Did good old Luo (and storytellers like him before and after) perpetrate these men into gods (by the Chinese cultural sense, I mean, I don't think it's persay necessary to debate the theological sense of it) by their great respect for them? Or was it their god-likeness that inspired these artists to continue to build their myths?

What I'm getting at is, did Luo Guanzhong effectively "make" Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei (and Zhuge Liang) into "gods" by his literature and compliation of myths? Or did the history itself lend to their promotion to deities, as it did with Zhuge Liang?

If it's history that inspires such knighting into godhood, how many other men of the Three Kingdoms were considered gods by their actions, especially from Wei and Wu? Even if shortlived, surely some people were considered worthy of being deities besides the three brothers?
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Unread postby Seven at One Stroke » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:36 pm

Wild-Eyes wrote:Did good old Luo (and storytellers like him before and after) perpetrate these men into gods (by the Chinese cultural sense, I mean, I don't think it's persay necessary to debate the theological sense of it) by their great respect for them? Or was it their god-likeness that inspired these artists to continue to build their myths?

What I'm getting at is, did Luo Guanzhong effectively "make" Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei (and Zhuge Liang) into "gods" by his literature and compliation of myths? Or did the history itself lend to their promotion to deities, as it did with Zhuge Liang?

I think it is the telling of the tale. In China, there's a very deep root of the oral story-telling tradition. There were storytellers who were armed with a musical instrument and just wanders the land telling historical stories (sort of like bards, I guess), and ususally romanticises them to draw in the audience. These tales eventually reach a mythic status and the characters immortalized in the Celestial Bureaucracy in folklore and become what is considered "Immortal" or "god", which are both Taoist concepts.

You obviously need good men with great deeds who have made it into history in the first place, but I believe that it's the telling of the story that gives them the place they have in folk belief.

Edit: Guan Yu and etc. have become gods, not the capitalized "God", which usually refers to the Christian God. Guan Yu did not become a god - which is basically an offical in the enormous Celestial Bureaucracy in Chinese folklore - simply because the priest (who was actually a Zen/Chan Buddhist I believe) guided him there. Because of his character and deeds in life (supposedly :roll: ), the Jade Emperor (or the Heaven, depending on which you're looking at) appointed him to that position. A god, in this case, can actually fall and be reincarnated as any organism, and unless he atones, cannot go back to his godly status. It's quite different from the Western worldviews.
Last edited by Seven at One Stroke on Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:43 pm

I don't think they were suitable to be gods. No one in the whole book is suited to be a god. Zhang Fei and Guan Yu especially. Guan Yu's own arrogance brought about his downfall. Zhang Fei beat his troops and died from it. Personally I would not worship these gods. Liu bei, well I have a huge problem with Liu Bei and his masquerade as loyal and righteous. He was selfish. He betrayed everyone he came in contact with. He betrayed his own family and took the Riverlands. He betrayed his ally and took Jingzhou and never returned it. He betrayed Yuan Shao after saying he would devote his life to him. He told Cao to kill Lu Bu after Lu Bu saved Bei from Yuan Shao. He betrayed the Emperor by forming his own empire, and left the Emperor with Cao who he viewed as a traitor. He tried to kill Cao after Cao treated Bei with much respect and courtesy. Come on, if this is righteous than what would that make Lu Bu? Liu Bei is in no way suited to be a god.

There are better people to have as god. I mean if you want loyalty, then choose someone who would die for his lord, Zhang and Guan died because of their own folly. Liu Bei is the best example of a someone who is selfish. Unless you want a god that is like that, then Guan Zhang and Liu aren't for you.
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