Cao Cao's Greatest Defeat

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Cao Cao's Greatest Defeat

Chi Bi
Han Zhong
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Cao Cao's Greatest Defeat

Unread postby Liao Zhen » Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:42 am

What would you people consider his greatest defeat? Chi Bi or Han Zhong? Chi Bi he lost thousands of legions in the battle and found death for himself numerous times. Or would you pick Han Zhong, battle after battle was lost to Huang Zhong, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun, not to mention many soldiers, Han Zhong, supplies and the general Xiahou Yuan. My vote would be Han Zhong. Express your opinoins.
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Unread postby Man Chong » Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:52 am

Chibi. When he lost that battle, he lost his biggest chances of getting the south.

Han Zhong wasn't too much of a biggie. Although it did prevent CC from mounting an effective attack on Shu, the loss of Chibi, I believe, is much greater, cuz if he won Chibi he would wipe out the only 2 ppl could have opposed him.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:25 am

Chi Bi because if he won here he would have destroyed Wu and Shu. If he won at Han Zhong then he would have only destroyed Shu, while Wu was still doing their own thing. Chi Bi also was a much more humiliating loss. It came because Cao Cao ignored sound advice. At least Han Zhong was not all his fault.
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Unread postby Cao Zhi » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:42 am

Cao Cao had other losses other than Chibi and Hanzhong. However, Chibi was the one loss in his career that broke his momentum and assured the independence of the Southland (and Liu Bei) for decades. It is arguable if Cao Cao could even have won at Chibi. Supply problems and logistics were major reasons, and his troops were sick and unused to naval warfare, while the southerners thrived on the water and were used to the climate.

Had Cao Cao won at Chibi and subjugated the South, he would only have Ma Teng in Liangzhou, the feeble Liu Zhang and the mystic Zhang Lu in Yizhou to worry about. Furthermore, had Cao Cao won, the Shanyue would be a major concern for Wei and not a nuisance for Wu. Wei was used to fighting the horse barbarians up north, but how would they fare with the Shanyue?
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Unread postby Devilrai » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:42 am

I say (and so far, all of you do as well) Chi Bi was Cao Cao's greatest defeat, he had what it took to win but in the end the alliance of Liu Bei and Sun Quan outsmarted him...badly. Also after Chi Bi he barely escaped with his life, so Chi Bi was his greatest defeat. Hanzhong was a good defeat but it was not as great as Chi Bi where it almost took his life.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:24 pm

Chibi for sure. Before Chibi, Cao Cao was an unstoppable military machine, and even the officials of Wu and Shu expected to be conquered before too long. Against all odds, Cao's army fell apart around him, and it set the stage for the rest of the Three Kingdoms period. It can be seen as a good thing, in a way, because it forced Cao to go home and start working on fixing up internal socio-political aspects of his Han kingdom.
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Unread postby Elven Fury » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:37 pm

Its Chi Bi no doubt... Cao Cao lost too many men here in a one sided victory, this was very close to a total victory (like not many casualties) for Wu, and Shu... it stopped Cao's near unbeatabkle army (at the time) and kept him from conquering Wu and Shu at the time... this was one major victory that almost too his life, and killed most of his army off....
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Unread postby Sima Hui » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:33 pm

It was Chibi. I reckon that with this crushing defeat came the almost certainty of Wei's power being diminished for several decades.

Hanzhong was a less important battle, but it could have finished off Shu. And with Shu gone, Wu didn't stand much of a chance. However, Chibi was Cao Cao's worst loss.
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Unread postby White Horse General » Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:20 pm

Chi Bi definatly. That was the battle that if won would have unified China under his rule and if lost...well we know the results. Victory for Cao Cao at Chi Bi would have been the end of Liu Bei before he even got into Shu and the Southland wouldn't have lasted long after that alone.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:46 pm

Chi Bi was Cao Cao's chance for complete victory.
Hanzhong was Cao Cao's chance to get a chance again for complete victory.
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